Figuring out the Philbrook Reel (marbled side plates)

Holireels · Post by **Holireels** » 09/25/10 11:38

Trying to determine exactly how the Philbrook side plates might have been made in the 1870's, prior to plastics and use of rubber. I researched materials and processes during that time think I might have figured it out. I think the marlbed side plates were actually molded into the metal side rings via a heated screw compression molding process, which used steam heated platens to melt the material. Materials used at this time that might have worked were natural rosins and/or shellacs, which are now todays synthetic expoxies. The resins are melted and combined with fillers to thicken the resin. Additionally, colors/pigments are used to the resin and then allowed to dry. Once dry, the resins are ground and then mixed, ready for the heated compression molding process.

I tried doing this, very low budget to see if it works. The pics below show the first and second try. The compression / heat process just flattens flows the material and you end up with a orange / black marbled appearance. This does not match the Philbrook look, but was a start (see below)

So, what to do now? Try a third time, heat the material longer, and reverse the molding process so that the resin flows: looks closer to what the Philbrooks did.

Almost, but too much flow and swirl. Now try one more time and limit movement of the compression mold:

I think this is pretty close. I have numerous pictures of the Philbrook side plates/reels and most all have different patterning. This is because of the resin blend, movement of the compression mold, time subjected to heat, and probably a few other factor that I have not included. I need to improve the process/equipment and then see if I can consistenly replicate the look. Once I get it figured, think I'll make a Philbrook. Let me know what you think? Tks......... -Holireels-

afgantrout · Post by **afgantrout** » 09/25/10 12:22

Very, very nice! You've done an amazing job of getting the 'look' of the Payne-Philbrook side plates...and in only 3 progressive steps! I'm looking forward to your first creation. Cheers!

Holireels · Post by **Holireels** » 09/25/10 15:48

afgantrout wrote:Very, very nice! You've done an amazing job of getting the 'look' of the Payne-Philbrook side plates...and in only 3 progressive steps! I'm looking forward to your first creation. Cheers!

Thanks......

Carpenter Bros Rods · Post by **Carpenter Bros Rods** » 09/26/10 01:03

Very cool! You know I am going to have to have one. Just add a red handle and it's perfect!

ttrotter · Post by **ttrotter** » 09/26/10 01:46

WOW! I can't wait to see this completed reel! PLEASE, keep us up to date on your progress.

Congrats on this major step!

Tom

turtledoc · Post by **turtledoc** » 09/26/10 03:57

John -

Congrats on your efforts......I've heard of other people "trying" to do what you've accomplished and after failing to replicate the P&P marble look concluding it wasn't possible.....but you've done away with that theory.

As someone that appreciates seeing the evolution to a final product I hope you'll hang onto those early test tries, they are a great way to see the progression and I really enjoyed seeing them in this post.

I really look forward to your finished reel

Wonderful work !

Mark B

BlackHillsBill · Post by **BlackHillsBill** » 09/26/10 05:01

Bull's-eye!

I've checked out the results of other makers' attempts
to get the Philbrook look. I expect many of us have.
When the mark is missed, it's like seeing "Maggie's
Drawers" waved at the military target range.  Not pretty.
Not the same even as an E for effort. An aesthetic miss
is as good as a mile, especially when we all know what
the target is, and no one enjoys looking at a reel that's
an obvious miss.

But your accomplishment is first-rate, John. Amazing.
Congratulations!  As several of us already know, you're
just one remarkable reelmaker and very generous about
sharing your experiments and methods. Thanks.

Holireels · Post by **Holireels** » 09/26/10 10:15

Cris, Tom, Mark, and Bill.........Thanks.....it took some effort in getting to the end result.

findwolfhard · Post by **findwolfhard** » 09/26/10 19:45

Congratulations,- almost there. It looks pretty close
Yes, this is the way to go.
I also made some experiments after I had read the article about "mud" earlier this summer.
In general there are a some problems, concerning hardness and , -more important,- pattern, which can not be solved just by mechanical impact.
best Wolfhard

Holireels · Post by **Holireels** » 09/27/10 06:24

Wolfhard,

Thanks.........

gespliesste · Post by **gespliesste** » 09/27/10 13:23

Also to consider is water and UV resistance and if a high gloss finish can be achieved.
Olaf

bulldog1935 · Post by **bulldog1935** » 09/28/10 05:30

can you make one in a fairy?

Flyman615 · Post by **Flyman615** » 09/28/10 06:48

A beautiful and promising accomplishment for sure, John.

Scott

Holireels · Post by **Holireels** » 09/28/10 13:53

bulldog1935 wrote:can you make one in a fairy?

Sure: A Phairybrook

Holireels · Post by **Holireels** » 09/28/10 13:59

Thanks Scott. Did you fish that Leonard yet?

Flyman615 · Post by **Flyman615** » 09/28/10 15:21

But it's going with me to Colorado next month!

Scott

mhackney · Post by **mhackney** » 11/07/10 08:14

Firstly, amazingly beautiful work! And great detective work too! Wolfhard, you referred to an article about "mud" - could you provide me the reference please?
regards,Michael

Holireels · Post by **Holireels** » 11/07/10 08:55

Michael,

First thanks. I'll be showing how to make a version of mud and mold it some time in the near future on the rod & reel builders section. The article on early materials can be found here: http://asoac.org/bulletins/96h_ardman_rubber.pdf

Another good source, with a little more detail is: "Plastic Molding", by Louis F. Rahm, which was published in 1933. Pages 22 - 26 contain some good information. Discusses how mud was the very first thermoplastic material and its uses.

mhackney · Post by **mhackney** » 11/07/10 10:34

Awesome, thank you! I hope you realize that mimicry is the highest form of flattery! I know I for one am going to experiment with this and have you to thank for getting off on the right foot! I have a PhD in chemistry and did injection molding of pre-ceramic polymers for a number of years, so maybe I will be able to contribute something!
cheers again,Michael

Holireels · Post by **Holireels** » 11/07/10 14:39

Michael,

Good deal. One thing I did not find was an exact formula for the mud, primarily what filler/s were used and in what quantity or ratio. I'm experimenting with that. Let me know how you progress and we can swap notes, if you like. Two minds are better than one. Thanks.....

John