Young rod flaming

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bigdaddycane
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Young rod flaming

#1

Post by bigdaddycane »

Were the nodes on the early and later Young rods ever flamed until they were blackened?

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quashnet
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Young rod flaming

#2

Post by quashnet »

Some of the darkest flaming on my Summers-built PHY Co. Martha Marie is over nodes. If by "blackened" you mean "so deeply flamed that the node was damaged," then I would say no, not blackened. But dark flaming over nodes can be found on PHY Co. rods.
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bigdaddycane
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Young rod flaming

#3

Post by bigdaddycane »

Thanks quash. I've seen a few Perfectionist clones that had very dark flaming ( almost black) over nodes and was wondering if this was consistent with the originals.

John

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jaybird
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Young rod flaming

#4

Post by jaybird »

The surface of a culm of cane has many dips. The area either side of the nodes often shows a swale or dip. When you flame a culm and darken the areas that are lower than the other surrounding surface area they often show up darker in the final rod because in subsequent sanding of the splines/blank the dip/swale areas serve to preserve the coloring or flaming of the culm as the the sanding hits the surrounding higher surfaces and reduces the darkness from flaming the low areas are preserved. In some cases if you look at the the really dark areas under magnification you find the remnants of charred enamel indicating that the maker did not sand enough to remove it. Usually what you see around nodes on a flamed rod is that the center or typically highest area is lighter in color whereas the the surface of the cane either side of the node will be darker. Realize that this is a generalization as each culm and it's inherent characteristics are individual. If the maker does a good job in prepping nodes, that is flattening and straightening so that the surface of the raw spline is consistently flat then when you come to the point of sanding, once you remove the enamel you tend to get less drastic variations of light and dark as the result of the flaming process. That said there are lots of variables that can cause the effect that you are describing including how the raw culm was flamed, the amount of heat put to the nodes in flattening and straightening, secondary flaming for cosmetic reasons, etc... Anyways, hope my experience working with a few flamed culms is of value.

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Young rod flaming

#5

Post by hoagy b carmichael »

I spent a lot of time with the great fly tier, Chauncy Lively, of Pittsburgh, PA. We often went to Michigan in the summers, me to watch Chauncy tie his patterns in the evenings, and to fish the trico hatch on the Au Sable. Chauncy and Marion knew Paul Young very well, and they often went on trips together. Chauncy owned about ten of Young's rods, and I remember standing in the north branch of the Au Sable with Martha Marie Young, watching her put thirty feet of line off the water without stripping in any line (thus the power of the "Martha Marie" model), and then delivering it with uncanny accuracy. Chauncy told me several times that Paul Young had seen indians heat treat their arrows over flame, often giving them a mottled appearance. He told me that because of that, Young always treated his cane in a manner (revolving it over a flame) that gave it much the same look. I saw Pauls' son, Jack, put a culm in their "treater" once, and the results were consistent with Young rods I had seen. I happen to believe very strongly that bamboo can only take so much heat without beginning to break down, and some Young rods I have seen, as well as many others, begin to cross the line. But, that is another subject. H. Carmichael

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spruce grouse
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Young rod flaming

#6

Post by spruce grouse »

Hoagy, do you remember what rod Chauncy was fishing? What year was it?
I have one of Chauncy's Martha Maries (he had at least two, one Paul Young-made and one Summers-made). Mine's the latter and has his Piitsburgh address as well as a Grayling, MI address on the tube.

Howard
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“On their backs were vermiculate patterns that were maps of the world in its becoming. Maps and mazes... In the deep glens where they lived all things were older than man and they hummed of mystery."

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pcg
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#7

Post by pcg »

Hoagy,
We're now off the topic of the original question, but Jim Payne began flaming cane around 1916, shortly after Eustis discovered the method. Essentially, I think Payne de-constructed or reverse engineered an EWE rod. Jim was a quick study & was selling flamed & non-flamed rods (the flamed were more expensive by a couple bucks) within a year of EW's breakthrough. Jim beat FET to market by about a year (FET was then staining rods, trying to remain competitive with Edwards). Everyone making rods was scrambling in the period 1916-1918 to figure out what EW had done. Young then contracted with Edwards post-1924 to make some rods, including the Young's Ace. These were lightly flamed. An example I own could be described as mottled in appearance. So I would tend to attribute the original style & appearance of the Young heat treatment to Edwards. But then as you know I am currently focused on all things Edwards, particularly the date & origin of the heat treatments & flaming.
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"Playing With Fire, The Life and Fly Rods of E.W. Edwards"
"D Is For Dingley, The Master Reelmaker" (co-author, Brian Taylor)

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jayhake
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Young rod flaming

#8

Post by jayhake »

Great thread guys,

Hoagy, I would be very interested in hearing a description of the Young "treater" used for flaming.

Best,

Jay

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creakycane
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Young rod flaming

#9

Post by creakycane »

Eustis Edwards discovered the method of flaming cane? I think not, this has been done in Asia for many centuries.......

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pcg
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#10

Post by pcg »

Yes, to get bugs out of the cane, but not to strengthen the cane to make it faster. Cane may have been scorched in Asia for centuries, but Edwards discovered flaming/heating cane for making rods.
Author:
"Playing With Fire, The Life and Fly Rods of E.W. Edwards"
"D Is For Dingley, The Master Reelmaker" (co-author, Brian Taylor)

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Trout120
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Young rod flaming

#11

Post by Trout120 »

Remember, Jim Payne used an oven.

T120

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creakycane
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#12

Post by creakycane »

"Edwards discovered flaming/heating cane for making rods."

.......What evidence is there to support this statement?

hoagy b carmichael
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#13

Post by hoagy b carmichael »

In answer to two posted questions. I don't remember what Chauncy was fishing while we were in Michigan, other than it WAS a Young rod. He always brought several, including a well-worn Driggs that he liked very much, as did Marion. 2nd question. The "treater" was, as i remember it, a long oven-like thing that had flame coming from several directions - toward the center. Bamboo was pushed into the contraption and turned, spiraled if you like, either by hand or by a set of gears, as it went in and came out. The turning action gave it an irregular flaming color. 3. Payne, if I am not mistaken, added flame to the cane even after he had pulled the sticks out of the oven. He did not like the light colored nodes (who did?), so much of his "color" came after he "treated" the cane for moisture. Hope this helps. H. Carmichael

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Young rod flaming

#14

Post by DrCane »

I've seen photos online of Paul Young's "Ring of Fire", the appliance Hoagy has described, though I just spent several minutes looking and can't find the link anymore. It's basically a ring of Image, with a number of "jets" pointed inward to flame the culm from all sides at once. pretty nifty device, and would cut the flaming time down quite a bit. chriso

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pcg
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#15

Post by pcg »

Creaky et al, You're forgetting your basic tackle history. Aside from the Kosmic, which was created with Thomas & Hawes, Edwards' major fame--and what launched him into a decade & a half as America's most acclaimed rodmaker--was his discovery that flaming strengthened a Tonkin rod. He created the perfect dry fly rod as a result. As I noted there was a 5-year period in the late teens where most of the top makers scrambled to figure out what he'd done. Suddenly Edwards rods were stronger, faster & lighter, not to mention more attractive than his competitors. The discovery in Brewer caused him to shift almost immediately from part-time photography work into full-time rod making again. All of this is well documented, starting with Keane's book in 1976 & in subsequent articles in AMFF quarterlies and many other tackle histories (including the recent Black book). Aside from the literature: examine EWE's rods from the Brewer period--deeply flamed. It's well known that FET's Mahogany rods were made in reaction to EWE's flamed rods & that FET was not able to figure out what EW was doing--& so resorted to initially dyeing the cane. These are some of the great stories in early 20th century tackle. Following the Edwards discovery, almost all makers offered both flamed (and/or oven cooked) and untreated Tonkin. The former was more expensive than the latter. No mysteries here.
Pat
Last edited by pcg on 01/19/08 12:45, edited 1 time in total.
Author:
"Playing With Fire, The Life and Fly Rods of E.W. Edwards"
"D Is For Dingley, The Master Reelmaker" (co-author, Brian Taylor)

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creakycane
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#16

Post by creakycane »

Thanks, Pat. Some of that I gathered from Keane but I am not really up on the Edwards rods. So you are talking about pre-1930 rods - and the so-called Filbert St Rods that Housatonic rods is producing replicas of? You mention a book on Edwards. Can you give specifics or PM me details. Thanks!

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moregrayling
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Young rod flaming

#17

Post by moregrayling »

DrCane wrote:I've seen photos online of Paul Young's "Ring of Fire", the appliance Hoagy has described, though I just spent several minutes looking and can't find the link anymore.


this image is not on the internet anymore; it was on the now defunct website of the paul young company.

best from "krautland",
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LHW
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Young rod flaming

#18

Post by LHW »

Ring of Fire:

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LHW

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pcg
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#19

Post by pcg »

Creaky,
The books on this subject that are probably easiest to acquire are, in order of ease of acquisition & least cost, are:

Casting A Spell by George Black (2006)
Classic & Antique Fly-Fishing Tackle by AJ Campbell (1997)
Classic Rods and Rodmakers by Martin J Keane (1976)

There have been scattered scholarly writings on the subject in thr AMFF quarterlies as well as other periodicals. I have a full length book on EW Edwards coming out this spring that recounts this story as well as his complete biography, which will be heavily illustrated.

But the undisputed history is that Edwards experimented on strengthening rods, working on tapers and minimizing rod weight, between 1900 and 1915. What he really did during those years, how intensely he worked and exactly what he tried as experiments, may never be fully known. But in 1915 he reentered the commercial rod making business with a major innovation that shook up the small industry for a number of years. A&F and other prestigious outfitters shifted work to him almost immediately, and his reputation appears to have soared within the tackle community. He is acknowledged to have finally made Tonkin the undisputed cane of choice. The flaming made a lighter, faster dry fly rod. There are several 7-foot EWE rods from this period that are simply spectacular.

This was not the fabled Filbert Street or Mt. Carmel years--that period was 1925 to 1931. The breakthrough years post-flaming-discovery were 1915 to 1919. Payne's first flamed rods appear in about 1916, as do FE Thomas' Mahogany rods. Once FET figured out EWE's new process, he began to offer the Browntone rods, which were oven-treated. These first appeared around 1917-18. Young's first heat-treated rods seem to be circa mid-1920s, and these were almost all crafted by Edwards under the Young imprint.

That's the scoop.

Pat Garner
Author:
"Playing With Fire, The Life and Fly Rods of E.W. Edwards"
"D Is For Dingley, The Master Reelmaker" (co-author, Brian Taylor)

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creakycane
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#20

Post by creakycane »

Thanks - What Press is producing your book?

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