The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

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Bethabara
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The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#1

Post by Bethabara »

This is the Green Montague that rod I received last Saturday It didn't take me very long to make it look pretty good.
Very close to the original wrap color but I had to manufacture all of the rings on my lathe and some of the saddles.
I got ahead on my work so I tackled the job head-on instead of waiting until April or May.
I hope the pics come out clear, I'm not great with a camera.

https://postimg.cc/gallery/1oz16zk0a/
Last edited by Bethabara on 01/19/20 23:25, edited 1 time in total.

Trout120-1
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#2

Post by Trout120-1 »

Absolutely stunning job ! How did you clean the grip so perfectly ? Was this a complete restoration ?








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Tommasini
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#3

Post by Tommasini »

Top notch work! How long is the rod?

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bamboocollector11
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#4

Post by bamboocollector11 »

Looks great! Fantastic job!

headwaters
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#5

Post by headwaters »

Wow, that's fabulous! An amazing job.

Bethabara
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#6

Post by Bethabara »

Thanks for all the "attaboys".
Knowing what I do, I would not be afraid to fish this 6 weight this coming spring for Browns.
All five ferrules have been re-cemented and re-pinned.

Webfly
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#7

Post by Webfly »

What a beauty. Is that the original green tint? If not, can I ask your process?

Bethabara
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#8

Post by Bethabara »

Yep, that's the original green tint that somehow bled into the cane. It was most likely a lot darker.
I never use chemicals to strip, I always use a 3 sided, hollow ground, burring knife, and 0000 steel wool with mineral spirits to finish but (no) sanding paper. It must have been exposed to warm temps for a long time.
The tint, much like Heddon, was most likely in the spar varnish, an educated guess on my part.
If this had been put in a shed with sunlight, I figure it would have bleached it completely out.
So it was most likely in a warm closet or in the basement joist near the furnace or similar conditions.

Tints like green, blue, and red in oil or enamel have been known to keep their color for 2 or 3 thousand years.
This includes fired pots, frescos, paintings on fabrics and leather and especially ceramics from the time of the Egyptians.
Not until the top gloss deteriorates does color begin to fade very much like 500-year-old varnish.

At least all this is in my opinion and you know opinions are like toilets, everybody has one. So any reader can gaze into the porcelain bowel or just pull the handle down. LOL.

PS: If you were to try to green up a rod I would suggest a tint type from an artist supply place. Warm up the blanks first then thin tint out with mineral spirits, apply on a bone dry cane, rub in with a soft cloth or a piece of 0000 steel wool, wait one hour. Then wipe heavily with a piece of Terry towel until cane almost looks polished. Wait for 48 hours, then first coat with tung-oil let dry 24 hours, second coat with Tru-oil let dry for 48 hours, lightly buff with 0000 s-wool, clean, final coat wipe on UV spar-varnish, let dry for 24 hours, polish with cotton and mineral spirits, then finish out the cosmetics.

You could use a vegetable dye for leatherwork but if you use any synthetic rod finish it will neutralize the dye in hours.
Of course, this is purely guesswork on my part.

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TheMontyMan
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#9

Post by TheMontyMan »

Sweet looking rod! I'm curious about the green coloring as well. Is the cane stained green, or is there a tint to the varnish? Was it like that when you got it?

. . . Rex
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snorider
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#10

Post by snorider »

viewtopic.php?f=66&t=106627 This thread has a reference to a Montague greenleaf finish which was malachite pigment dissolved in varnish...This is pretty old tech from at least the late 1400's. My Gnomish rod has this same pigment and it is amazing to behold. In addition to Monty, this same technique was used by Heddon for their greenleaf rods, and the "Invisible" Divine rods as well. The gnome has a ball mill he used to recreate the effect with malachite flour...pretty cool stuff! I would love to see an Invisible they seem to live up to the name.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it. T.R.

Bethabara
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#11

Post by Bethabara »

To Monty:
That's a very good question. The fact is that the but ugly, granulated, dried hard as a rock, thin calcium/mineral looking varnish nearly refused to come off. The varnish was a filthy, dusty, light olive color that came off under my special knife. But low and behold the cane was the same color despite my light scraping. So after an entire day of varnish removal, I figured the tint or pigment leached into the wood or it leached into the varnish from the wood. I can't be sure. I used mineral spirits and 0000 s-wool to lightly clean and the green color got brighter. Of course, I mapped out the rod configuration and color wrap location first.
After that, I hand rubbed Tung-oil into the wood and this is what you see. After that, I used Tru-oil, then used nearly colorless UV spar varnish. I won't use Helmsmen, it caused problems years ago and don't like Poly-anything.
I make my own finishes since 2002. Also, I would never suggest using Threadmaster-One on a cane or cane wraps.
I always try my best (sometimes to extream measures) to keep as much originality to a cane rod as possible.

To all collectors, rod builders, and repair-restore cane enthusiasts:
While we're on the subject; I know that many people resent individuals restoring vintage cane rods. (They) would have that rod looking like trash unto eternity. But please don't confuse profiteering thimble-riggers with honorable, dedicated, restorationist. We don't do this work to deceive buyers. We restore to honor the original maker, who if alive would agree.
It has always been my philosophy that no quality rod maker in any era wants his creation to be viewed after their demise as a bunged up, jury-rigged, piece of landfill crap on eBay, that was rode hard and put away wet!
If it is worth a museum or private collectors display, it is our duty to honor and respect the makers by understanding them and their work and restoring that rod to the makers' satisfaction. If a rod is worth saving and restoring, it is worth a bag, a storage tube, and displayed with the respect it deserves. I have been doing this since 1957 with that thought in mind.

No one can achieve perfection but we strive to come darn close and we never stop discovering and learning.
Beth-

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wctc1
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#12

Post by wctc1 »

Hi Beth: Great job. Very good words. Thank you for sharing. Joe here

Tommasini
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#13

Post by Tommasini »

Was the original pinning on the ferrules completely thru the ferrule or just thru one side as is Montague typical?

Bethabara
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#14

Post by Bethabara »

From one side only.
I had to depress them with a pin punch in my drill press on the steel table just enough not to push out the other side or to cause a bulge on the opposite side of the three males. I removed the ferrules, cleaned and scraped, dug the pins out of the wood, replaced the ferrules with old fashioned heated ferrule resin, and re-pressed the pins.

Too much pressure and you have another hole out the other side.

To replace the ferrule in the original location, I use a sturdy T-pin to locate the hole then mark the lineup with a pencil.
Then just heat up the ferrule cement and ferrule, replace and line up with marks, replace the pins with the radius side to side in shape with the ferrule radius. It's a lot of work if one does it right.

The rod was so old I couldn't take a chance they were to loosen up with flexing pressure.
When I told the owner he could fish that rod tomorrow; I meant exactly what I said.
I have nothing but time to spend on any rod, no rush, no pressure, just confidence.
I don't mind being found dead at my workbench but not one minute before I finish the rod I'm working on!

rsagebrush
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#15

Post by rsagebrush »

Lovely!

TEJJR
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#16

Post by TEJJR »

Indeed, a stunningly beautiful rod. Never seen a production Montague like it. Any idea on the age? Any markings on the rod at all? Noticed the guides, which Campbell notes were stopped being used around 1900 when production cane rods started being churned out by makers like Montague. This feature could make the rod quite old. Then there's the swell on this rod. I'd be very surprised that was offered on any production rod. If it is in fact a Montague I suspect it was a custom rod made by E.P. Bartlett at their high-end workshop in Pelham, MA. There are reel seat similarities between this rod and a surviving Bartlett which has now been located.

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Gnome
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#17

Post by Gnome »

Sorry but I must respectfully disagree with the statement of;

"Then there's the swell on this rod. I'd be very surprised that was offered on any production rod"

The rod above is mid to upper-grade production rod with a mortised or inlaid grip, These were done by many production makers including Leander Bartlett and H.L.Leonard and Conroy. Bissett & Malleson and Conro& Bissett and Divine and Montague and Chubb/Montague and Chubb and Hardy and C.E.Wheeler and the list goes on with Varney and others, with one of the earliest known mortised rods by Solon Phillipe.

Definitely a Montague!!!!

So to say the rod being discussed is a special order/custom rod is probably not a proper ID of that rod.

Mid to upper-grade mass-produced would be more appropriate in my view.

2 cents from the evil Bad gnome

P.S. nice restore but was the original Malachite finish much more opaque??? Like the ones I have seen and handled. not trying to start a fight just that the finish seems very light and not like what the original green montys I have seen.

Edit; Malachite has been used as a dye / pigment since ancient times with 1760 tons removed from the "Great Orme Mines" In Britain, between 3800 years ago and 600 BCE when they stopped mining there, it has been used from almost time immemorial to stain leather and paper and cloth, stains wood and bamboo pretty well too.

2nd edit; and by 1880 you had cane rods being "Churned out" BY Bartlett and Chubb and Leonard and Wheeler and C,B&M, C&B, McHarg and man the list of cane rod makers in 1880 is astounding and I bet no one has ever compiled that list and when you add in the English and European makers I bet that list is way bigger than any of us expect it to be. I will stop there sorry for the sidetrack but we need to be accurate historically correct?

Bethabara
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#18

Post by Bethabara »

Well, Mr. Gnome; I never said it was a special order and not sure that anyone ever said that to me.
I try to be general in information unless I can accurately nail the lid down, which is rare for me.
I'm very grateful for all the interaction from these cane loving anglers, whether it be 2 cents or a whole dollar.
Don't worry about any backlash, life's too short, opinions are so temporary, good friends are harder to find than any fly rod.
You're probably right, and they are probably right, and I'm probably late for lunch, which is more important at my age.

I was thinking about how angry I got about the last fish I lost on Muskegon River because the tippet broke.
What a waste of time losing temper, there is a lot more fish in that river, all I had to do is tie on another fly.

I just hope there is another conversation piece out there for me to work on, show some pictures and smoke a peace pipe.
Someday before I croak, I want to go to a New York gathering or conclave, rub elbows, drink beer, and talk about fishing.

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OldCane
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#19

Post by OldCane »

Very nicely refinished Monty. Much older than my own green Monty rod and appears to be the oldest green bamboo rod that I've seen. In any case, you've just have to love those old mortised rods for looks. As Gnome has stated, my own green Monty has the green pigment in it's finish and over which I had a light overcoat of clear varnish added to stabilize it.
I don't have a PhD, but I do have a DD214.

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Gnome
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Re: The Green Montague with black & white grip fly rod

#20

Post by Gnome »

Bethabara wrote:Well, Mr. Gnome; I never said it was a special order and not sure that anyone ever said that to me.
I try to be general in information unless I can accurately nail the lid down, which is rare for me.
I'm very grateful for all the interaction from these cane loving anglers, whether it be 2 cents or a whole dollar.
Don't worry about any backlash, life's too short, opinions are so temporary, good friends are harder to find than any fly rod.
You're probably right, and they are probably right, and I'm probably late for lunch, which is more important at my age.

I was thinking about how angry I got about the last fish I lost on Muskegon River because the tippet broke.
What a waste of time losing temper, there is a lot more fish in that river, all I had to do is tie on another fly.

I just hope there is another conversation piece out there for me to work on, show some pictures and smoke a peace pipe.
Someday before I croak, I want to go to a New York gathering or conclave, rub elbows, drink beer, and talk about fishing.
My response was to address some historical inaccuracies posted by TEJJR

sorry, you took it as an insult It was not meant that way

it is a historical fact that "production cane" was being "Churned out" by 1875 and not as late as 1900 as stated by TEJJR and it is also a historical fact that there where more than 10 production makers making mortised rods between 1875 and 1925.

Beth is mad at me over my views on originality and how a museum piece should be treated, which is not all rods should be restored, IMHO!! one thing we should agree on is being historically accurate or does that not count here anymore?

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