A CE Wheeler found in the Adirondacks long ago.

[jeffkn1]

Thanks, Jeff and Jeff. I thought that I had at least one Wheeler rod with Chubb hardware, so Beth's rod was puzzling. Both this and the DS&K rod have Chubb hardware (I'm fairly certain those reel seats, rails and sliding bands came out of the Chubb shop - if Chubb rods were made wholly in the Chubb factory), but like you guys mentioned, the inlays and stamp are not characteristic of Wheeler.

A certain rod stamped J.P. Moore's Sons, known to you, has a Chubb body and probably a Chubb band but a Wheeler two-piece soldered butt cap. That rod is typical of the early 1880's Wheelers. Good friend Jerry has an 1882 J.P. Moore's Sons catalog and one of its illustrations is a dead ringer for the real thing. Not too different from a certain unmarked rod in your possession.
Most, not all, of those wide sliding bands are almost generic in appearance and it wouldn't surprise me if many of them were sourced from Post Mills. Some could even have found their way to Bangor in the 1870's.

[jeffkn1]

Here's a reelseat almost identical to the subject rod with a different band, except it's marked Dame Stoddard & Company "Acme", not to be confused with a Wheeler Acme Split Bamboo Rod company rod. That Dame Stoddard name was used from 1900-1920. Wheeler stopped making his Acme in 1894 and he never used that reel seat. And the DS Acme came on a blue velvet formcase with domed wooden end caps painted black. For certain those will continue to confuse people for a long time.

[headwaters]

Many thanks to the contributors to this thread!

It definitely makes me hope we're headed back toward the good old days when there was lots of scholarship contributed to the Forum on a regular basis.

Rupert

[2dabacking]

I don't have access to my Chubb Silkien, but the following link shows essentially the same rod with hardware like the OP's rods:

viewtopic.php?f=67&t=53959

[bambookill]

The story of your wheeler is reminding me of my biggest screwup ever. When I first started restoring rods when I was in my late 20’s, I’m going on 56 this may, I got ahold of this rod in the pics I’m providing. It has sat on my bench now for almost 30’s years as an unknown rod. Here was my screw up, and it didn’t take me long to realize it: I tore this rod apart and didn’t do any research (and it has not happened since). However, I’ve always believed this rod to be a late C.E. Wheeler. It has long thin mortised cedar strips. Like the green kid I was back then, I stripped the rod ( without documentation of course, kick myself in the arse) and I tore off the sheet cork it had, and took a file to the butt cap end after I removed the dents. Then, I did a rattan grip. What the heck was I thinking with all that??? Thankfully, I learned what I did wrong quickly and never did anything like that again. Note: the reel seat is solid nickel silver. To this day I could go back and slap myself. It has bothered me for years. Is it a late CE wheeler? I don’t think I will ever know for sure now. The point is, that could so easily stamp it and finish it out to be a wheeler and fake out an unsuspecting buyer with little knowledge, but I would NEVER do that!!! I can’t say for sure if your rod is a Wheeler or not. I’ve seen many Wheeler rods that have different features from the circa 1881 model I also have in my collection, and the more I learn about antique fly rods the less makes sense. All you can do is hold on and hope another example comes along.

[jeffkn1]

Bambookill

I don't recognize anything that definitely points to a typical Wheeler of any grade, outside the sliding band and reel seat body which are both Chubb. That specific butt cap is not one I've seen on a Wheeler. Virtually all Wheelers have concentric rings scribed on the bottom of the butt cap. The winding check is not one I've seen before. His winding checks, except for perhaps some of the earliest ones, are either made from scratch or reworked from Chubb. I can't tell Wheeler inlays when I see them.
I'll dig out a photo of a Wheeler with his sheet cork grip, which is distinctive. You'll know if yours is a Wheeler when you see his sheet cork grip. AJ's book shows one and I have never seen sheet cork any different on a Wheeler. Also, I haven't seen a Wheeler fly rod with sheet cork so worn out that it needed replacing. Bait rods are a different story, as they get rougher use on a regular basis.
Marking a rod with Wheeler's name may fool somebody, but not anyone who does any homework. Wheeler used two different roll stamps, C.E. Wheeler-Maker and C.E. Wheeler-Maker-Farmington. He also had a few rods, notably those with a wood filler on the reel seat, engraved in fancy script on the butt cap, rather than on the seat body like the roll-stamped rods. Those rods are later production with cork rings and are what I take to be higher grade in all regards.
He also had separate roll stamps for trade rods produced for SD&G(Acme being one) and Dame-Stoddard(Hub, though not all Hubs are Wheeler-made).
Charles Wheeler also sold some unmarked rods, generally rods with unwelted female ferrules. He seems not to want his name associated with entry-level goods. The ones I've seen may have been sold out of the shop to walk-in trade.
Note in this example not only the format of the marking, but also the use of seamed tubing and celluloid as a rattan substitute. This would be a medium grade rod.

For the later marking he employed a separate Farmington stamp applied below the original, as indicated by occasional examples of misalignment, like this one.

[Bethabara]

Well, if you took that Chubb style reel seat off I would say it looked like a Lon Blauvelt mortised rod.

If you have not had a lot of experience with mortised rods; the short mortice was a mass production rod notably during the Montague takeover.
The long morticing extending through the reel seat area and beyond allowing a remote butt cap was the work of a custom rod bench pre-1900.
However, your best source of this info is the Montyman [moterator] and author - historian Jeff Hatton, both experts on this forum.
Mike

[Bethabara]

PS: It's just a guess on my part but it looks as if the rattan grip was recently installed where sheet cork once was.
I could be wrong.

[bambookill]

Mike, interesting you said Lon Blauvelt . I’ve seen his mortised rods in person, and I kind of thought that myself. I make mortised rods myself, so I’m familiar with different procedures on how it’s done. Here are a couple of my mortised rods that I made.

[bambookill]

Jeff, any other idea of who made long thin mortise like that? Just picking your brain. Maybe someone I’m not thinking of, possibly. Any thoughts? That rod is going to drive me nuts guys lol haha

[Bethabara]

I know this may not seem related but I remember way back when I first got started on cane rods.
All I had to work with was a will, a great pair of hands, imagination, and determination to rebuild a rod for my first customer in 1958.
There were no forums, nobody to ask questions to but I did have a local library and Herters in Waseca, Minnesota.

Try to step back in time, a little like Jane Semore and Christopher Reeves, imagine how little you know about 1880.
It would be like a fish out of water and all you had, to begin with, was an idea, a product, a dream you wanted to materialize.
They called it the Smith era for a good reason and trying to find a shop to make you a roll stamp was not an easy task.
One of the things that made Thomas Chubb so famous was the fact that he sold components to everyone in the rod-making business.
So if it looks like a Chubb rod, looks like a Chubb reel seat, looks like Chubb ferrules, only with someone else's name on it? Well, you can figure it out.

Some people are good with their hands, but not much of a business mentality, imagine making most of your tools and working in a poorly lit workshop.
Your first and only thoughts of building your first fly rod turn into an obsession but you don't know about other businesses available to help you.
Like engravers or a jeweler, or advertising companies to tell people you're in business, who's going to carry, promote, and sell your product.
It must have been frustrating trying to find the money needed, trying to break into a marketplace against 40-year-old well-established rod makers.

Well, I don't have to imagine any of it, been there, done that. I've known success and failure three times each, but it took up so much of my time in the last 30 years I finally just gave up trying. No one will ever remember who I am or what I did but I don't regret one minute of it.
I really envy those guys, Burtis, Murphy, Wheeler, Leonard, Varney, Chubb, Divine, and a hundred others that I tried to walk in their footsteps.
Regarding Wheelers signature & stamps; a Cliche for your answer, first you must walk a mile in Wheeler's shoes to understand him.
Mike

[jeffkn1]

first you must walk a mile in Wheeler's shoes to understand him.

I've studied Wheeler for 20 years and collected his rods for 17 of those years. Including parts rods and Wheeler-made trade rods, there are over 50 of his rods in this house, from 7-14', plus a few of his guns, a few of his carded flies, and one lonely Wheeler net.
I have a good start on understanding him.

[cregb]

PS: It's just a guess on my part but it looks as if the rattan grip was recently installed where sheet cork once was.
I could be wrong.

Then, I did a rattan grip.

Um, no. I think the rattan grip is definitely new to this rod.