How can you really tell?

Post by **bassman** » 05/27/20 17:25

I often look at Classifieds for some of the really top of the line rods from makers like Payne, Hidy, Howell, Brandin, and others in that upper tier level and wonder if I'm safe in making the investment in a rod like that. Not an investment for the future but just in owning and handling a rod of theirs. Maybe fish it a little carefully. But without providence of some type is their a way to know this rod came from the Payne bench or from a highly skilled counterfeit bench? Are there really people out there who can study a rod and know it's origin? I don't have money to have carbon dating done on the bamboo and even that can be sourced from the past.

So other then only buying from top dealers and having proof of the lineage of the rod (also could be reels) how do I safely make the purchase and not sit and admire and caress a $2000 priceless heirloom coming from a chop shop in Brooklyn for $75? With my fishing days being very limited now I am asking seriously about this as I'm still kicking myself for a genuine article I bought and sold some time back. I still have the Gnome's rod to do this with but I'm looking farther back in time at builders.

thegubster · Post by **thegubster** » 05/27/20 18:14

Nick, if you can trust the Gnome's referencing and eye, I have a Payne 200 8' 3/2 4wt that he dusted up the ferrules on a tad last year...

If yer in "the market" we can talk but it's a bit north of that $2000 mark as she's in really fine shape and recently refinished by non-other'n Mr. Don Schroeder hissef...

No hurry, ever...she's not going anywhere...

Jeremy.

Post by **bassman** » 05/27/20 20:37

That's the kind of provenance that a person could trust. A long term board member. A long term quality builder around the old rods game for years. And refinished by a quality bamboo man. Not ready to pop for one yet but if/when I do yours will be the type of background for the rod I'd be looking for.

Nick

Peales · Post by **Peales** » 05/27/20 21:41

If there’s a highly skilled rod-maker in Brooklyn making replica Payne’s for 75 bucks, the maker would need to have his head examined.

roycestearns · Post by **roycestearns** » 05/28/20 00:19

If you're looking for a deal on the high end stuff, you're ripe for the fraudster.

I'd suggest taking a different approach. Expect to pay market price, buy the high end rod from a reputable source, experience it and then sell it for market price. The high end stuff holds it's price, you may be out a few bucks for shipping etc, but you'll get what you paid, and had a wonderful experience for the price of the shipping!

Barney · Post by **Barney** » 05/28/20 05:29

I gave up on owning high end rods long ago. I have owned several, was always worried about damaging them, took them out to wiggle them now and then, rarely fished them.
I can understand pride of ownership and collecting some of the best. A hobby for those with deep pockets, nothing wrong with that. I realized that I could get by just fine with three Orvis impregnated rods that fit the fishing that I did (past tense), with no worries.

Flyman615 · Post by **Flyman615** » 05/28/20 09:03

I'd like to hear from anyone who has purchased a "high end" rod (>$1500) from any source that turned out to be fake/fraudulent.

Restored vs. original doesn't count. Pictures are a plus.

Scott

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 05/28/20 09:25

Flyman615 wrote:I'd like to hear from anyone who has purchased a "high end" rod (>$1500) from any source that turned out to be fake/fraudulent.

Restored vs. original doesn't count. Pictures are a plus.

Scott

Same here. Anyone who could credibly fake a Payne, Howells or Brandin should be able to do better selling rods under their own name. It just wouldn't be lucrative.

40 or so years ago, when vintage bamboo started to take off, I don't doubt that someone stuck a Leonard or Payne buttcap on some Monty or H-I, and passed it off to someone else. Now that we have the interwebs and places like this forum, that would be near impossible, except to the most willfully uninformed.

The cautions about buying from a known source are well founded. The lower the price, the greater the risk. Or put in other terms, if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is!

ibookje · Post by **ibookje** » 05/28/20 10:44

Not fake but RK Bolt makes very Howell-ish rods. I haven’t handled one myself yet but they sure look nice.

For big money rods I prefer to acquire from established dealers.

Canewrap · Post by **Canewrap** » 05/28/20 11:07

I've been at this quite a while and I haven't come across any outright fakes, but have come across a few instances where someone rewrapped a rod differently to make it more valuable or had a replacement tip made that matched the other pieces and never listed it appropriately. Back in 2007, before I started making my own rods, I knew a rodmaker that told me he could fake a Payne, but I knew he couldn't really as he didn't know how to hold dimensions tightly on his own rods and it's not easy to fake that truly aged look. His finishing work was top-drawer, but it wouldn't have passed muster for a Payne. If you put the work into making a believable fake you might as well advertise it as a really well executed replica, rather than try to fool anyone, because this is a small community and when it's found out it will come back to bite you.

Flykuni3 · Post by **Flykuni3** » 05/28/20 11:09

Pretty hard to fake name cane rods given our scrutiny. OTOH, I hv seen examples of lure repaints and recreations that are very hard to ID as such — then the pros in that field get into the details: eyes, hooks, screws, etc. Like us the best are on their game, knowledge is impressive and hard to fool. Same for fish and duck decoys, lots of money in those (yrs back).

If busted game over for you.

rsagebrush · Post by **rsagebrush** » 05/28/20 12:41

RK Bolt rods are actually quite spendy, and deserve to be, and are in the same price range as the Howells rods I see selling nowadays. I don't think he is doing any Howells copies either. He does have some older Howells blanks for the same price though.
I've had them both and prefer the Bolt rods myself.

Post by **bassman** » 05/28/20 12:54

I appreciate the advice, answers, PM, and though not immediately looking for a rod I do now feel like it would be safe to buy a rod inspected by quality builders or brokers. I would also look for some sort of background on the rod mainly to give it a story line when handling or admiring, if not fishing it.

Thanks again for the board knowledge we can tap into on here,
Nick

cdmoore · Post by **cdmoore** » 05/28/20 13:39

Acquisition. You can't be 100% sure. Always a leap of faith, more or less. More homework = shorter leap. Managing expectations (excellent condition vs. new) and careful shopping = smaller financial risk.

Ownership. You cannot eliminate all risk. Car doors, falls, fan blades, dogs, kids, fire, thieves, workmanship. Better care = lower risk of damage + higher return when passed on, traded or sold.

Path forward. Decide your level of risk tolerance. For feeling duped. For financial loss. For whatever. Decide your expected return on investment. For fishing utility and enjoyment. For ogling on the wall. For whatever. Imagine the worst case scenario. Posted your latest acquisition on the forum only to be told it is a fake. Lose all $2k to a "window shopper." How bad would that really be? Do homework to minimize risks. The leap: do or do not as Yoda would say. If do not, you have done some hard work of self-analysis for the next opportunity. If do, use appropriate levels of care to protect your investment in accordance with your risk tolerance and means. Realize that if you assigned a high value to fishing utility and enjoyment in your ROI calculation and then don't actually use the rod, your ROI will be far less than anticipated and this carries an opportunity loss that is difficult to overcome. Use it or lose it. Realized that market values fluctuate with time. Hot becomes cold and vice versa. If you ever sell, as a friend says, do your best to sell when you can, not when you have to.

You are not alone. I have been there. I venture to guess most if not all members of this forum and its lurkers have been where you are on some level, whether it was dollars, duping or damage that was the main consideration.

Flyman615 · Post by **Flyman615** » 05/28/20 13:56

I'll go so far as to say, if any Forumer has actually been duped into buying a "high end" bamboo fly rod only to find out later that it's probably a fake but you're still too embarrassed to admit it here, please PM me with any details/photos.

I promise, I won't tell a soul.

Scott

Peales · Post by **Peales** » 05/28/20 15:03

Really great comments above. I also agree on the sentiments regarding the nearly complete absence of fake rods.

The one exception might be in the production of rods built as ‘kit’ rods and rods assembled using inventory from a closed shop. These rods are relatively rare, limited in brand and well know within the rod community.

Most of a buyers caution should be directed to fraudulent condition. Rods can sometimes be refinished, or partially refinished and passed off as original. Rods can have repairs that are not disclosed, hidden, or not even known about. Tips can be replaced, and at times are very close to the originals. Same goes for bags and tubes. I have witnessed a few poor attempts at re-inking or ‘repairing’ a signature that was destroyed during a restoration. I have yet to see someone successfully re-ink a Granger stamp. I have also seen a poor attempt at forging Tom Maxwell notations on a Leonard rod. Other than the few exceptions described in the previous paragraph, I have yet to even hear about a rod that was not built by the suggested maker. This perspective coming from someone who has a number of years experience in collecting, restoring and building bamboo fly rods.

I’m sure that there have been fakes. Maybe we’ll hear of a couple in this thread. I’m suggesting that actual 100% fakes and people knowingly selling them they are very rare.

cwfly · Post by **cwfly** » 05/28/20 15:16

Exact same discussion three years ago with some of the same participants.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=101987

Flyman615 · Post by **Flyman615** » 05/28/20 17:14

cwfly wrote:Exact same discussion three years ago with some of the same participants.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=101987

Gee, Charlie, maybe it's worth chewing the cabbage twice. Either that or maybe we're all just a bit bored in quarantine?!

Scott

Flykuni3 · Post by **Flykuni3** » 05/28/20 17:45

I like that previous one, thanks for posting the link -- spicy, spicy.

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 05/28/20 19:24

I'll add a coda to what I said before - A few years back I bought a purported Leonard 4099 here on the Forum. The seller was a nice guy and freely admitted he knew little about the rod or its provenance. When I received the rod, it was clear that it had replaced guides, ferrules, and had been cut down from a 9 footer. I contacted the seller and he promptly refunded my money, telling me to keep the rod, he was disgusted with the whole thing. He also mentioned where he had purchased the rod, from a well known dealer often lauded on this forum. This dealer selling this rod as a Leonard 4099 was either an act of gross negligence or outright dishonesty. The buyer (fellow I bought it from) did not know what to look for and just assumed he had a real dog of a rod.

I guess I wouldn't consider the rod to be "faked", just poorly modified, but a well known seller passing it off was a real shock.

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