Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

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snorider
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Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#1

Post by snorider »

So a question for the south bend/cross historians. I have now seen 5 south bend 1500 rods with the serial number 4711xx; there are at least three on the Forum, 1 on the web, and one a friend of mine just bought. I think November 1947 would be a bit late for a cross labeled SB rod? I have seen several "non sylph" 5/6wt sb/cross 1500 rods with no serial numbers and a couple with 4 digit numbers in the 3xxx range but most I've seen carry the 4711xx serial number; is this just coincidence?
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Michael
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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#2

Post by Southbranch »

I have a 7' South Bend Cross Sylph Singlebuilt 1500 with an inscription on the butt that reads “Cross Rod Model 1500” and 46927 on the same flat just below the stripping guide. I don't think the number is a date code. Based on company catalogs, I believe my rod was made in the mid-1930s.

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#3

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, My birthday present from my brother and another forum member, is a SB/Cross, 7', 2 1/4 oz, 1500, HEH,Serial 7244..... Don't lose the bag/tag! It's had a restoration/refinish/refurbish with black wraps and antique gold tipping. The serial # is on the tag and just below the strip guide on the same flat as the guides. Dusty finish, so it'll get that done. Are the wrap colors correct? It's a pretty good job, and it looks nice, and I have plenty to do, so......... I don't have a history about the rod, but it sure is cool! I don't mean to hijack, but here's another 'Sylph.' It's a 3-4 wt. I'd say.

Jay Edwards

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#4

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

I'm not a SB historian, but do know that Wes Jordan worked at both SB and Orvis. If we look at Greg Reynolds' excellent Orvis database at www.antiquerodandreels.com, we see that under Wes' leadship (and carried on after his exit), orvis built rods of the same taper in batches; I suspect that he did the same while at SB, which may be why many 1500 rod are in the same s/n range.

In Wes Jordan Profile of a Rodmaker by Spurr and Jordan, Wes states that they made rods in batches of 100 while at Cross.
Last edited by NewUtahCaneAngler on 01/28/24 09:24, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#5

Post by Woodlakejag »

I’ll check my references tonight and update this post, but my opinion of the 1500 serial numbers is that they are unique to the model and don’t line up with other Cross/SB serial numbers.
I have a 1500 with SN 46947 that I believe is very early SB. 1926-1930. It is currently out for a tune-up, but I would be interested in knowing what other people have in regards to ferrule size, markings, and actual rod weight.
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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#6

Post by para_adams »

Maybe unrelated, but my SB/Cross #164 (9" dry fly model) has a serial # 0474385 and I've seen other #164, #264 and #255 double-built 9' rods starting 047. Perhaps the number "047" denoted 9' double-built while "147" denoted single-built?

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#7

Post by Southbranch »

bluesjay wrote:
09/09/20 22:48
Hi Guys, My birthday present from my brother and another forum member, is a SB/Cross, 7', 2 1/4 oz, 1500, HEH,Serial 7244..... Don't lose the bag/tag! It's had a restoration/refinish/refurbish with black wraps and antique gold tipping. The serial # is on the tag and just below the strip guide on the same flat as the guides. Dusty finish, so it'll get that done. Are the wrap colors correct? It's a pretty good job, and it looks nice, and I have plenty to do, so......... I don't have a history about the rod, but it sure is cool! I don't mean to hijack, but here's another 'Sylph.' It's a 3-4 wt. I'd say.

Jay Edwards
Jay, the 1934 SB/Cross catalog pg. 25 said that Cross Singlebuilt Rods could be ordered in any combination of two color winds and 4 choices of cane color. When it was restored, I had my "natural" colored cane rod rewrapped in Flame Red and Black.

Pete


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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#8

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, Thank you Pete, pretty amazing that they offered custom wraps on production rods. I like this color scheme, though it's not suggested. I can see some pencil marks under the somewhat elaborate signature wraps, so I'm guessing a rewrap. I'll reset a ferrule and clean up the varnish. This rod is 'natural.'

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#9

Post by chugbug »

I've been lurking a bit here because I've got one of these singlebuilts (medium brown finish with orange and black wraps) in my closet waiting for me to learn some finishing techniques and use it for bass....

Pete, if it's not too much to ask would you be able to post page 31 of that catalog showing the different grips available, just out of curiosity? And thanks for that post on the wraps and build!

Also, does anyone know what brand and size of wrapping thread was used on these rods? What c/p and varnish might work to touch up a medium brown version? I'm also needing to replace the stripping guide on mine and a running guide, if anyone has a clue what was original there. (Or is that going too far?)

Sorry if this is a hijack, not much to do with s/n, mine's a four digit...

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#10

Post by Capt. Frank »

My Crossbuilt 1500 is serial numbered 471137.

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#11

Post by Southbranch »

chugbug wrote:
09/10/20 12:22
. . . Pete, if it's not too much to ask would you be able to post page 31 of that catalog showing the different grips available, just out of curiosity? And thanks for that post on the wraps and build! . . . .
Sure - here is the entire Cross section of that 1934 South Bend catalog:


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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#12

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, Thank you for the Cross pages. I have the Jordan book, but this is helpful.

Jay Edwards

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#13

Post by Woodlakejag »

Here is a page from the 1927 catalog
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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#14

Post by Woodlakejag »

I will add that my 1500 has a 13/64 ferrule, which is the largest I’ve seen on a 7 ft 2/2 rod of that era.

The only first hand reference I’ve seen to Cross serial numbers is in the Spurr book at 102, a letter from Wes Jordan to an owner of a Cross Rod:
“...any serial number over 2500 was a production rod. Your rod should be a double built model because of a zero preceding the number and was probably made in 1930. The decals were used only after 1926 at south bend”.
By production rod he meant one made at SB.

My Lynne marked Cross rods are SNs 2142, 590, and 01946.
As I stated in my other post, I don’t think the SNs on the 1500s followed this system, but it seems to work with the other models.

George
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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#15

Post by para_adams »

Great info, so the 0 at the front of the SN does denote double-built. Good to learn that.

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#16

Post by Southbranch »

Mine has a 13/64" ferrule too. It has thick tip sections and flexes into the grip but it casts DT5F to DT7F line without overloading. Probably a 6 wt. rod despite the small grip and cork reel seat. (The 1934 catalog rated it for HDH line (6 wt.).) I use it with a DT5F or TT5F. I don't believe the rod would even load with 3 wt., and a 4 wt. would be very fast.

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#17

Post by Woodlakejag »

Here’s a 1500 marked 46924. Looks just like the one I have and is only a few numbers away from Southbranch’s rod:
https://antiquerodandreels.com/rodmanufacturers/497
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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#18

Post by Woodlakejag »

Also, in the 1938 SB catalog there is no longer a model 1500 and no 7 ft rods. The shortest rods are 7’6”, models 29 and 26.

Also, the 4711xx numbered rods that I’m seeing online are all 7’6”. The 469xx are 7 ft. The 1927 and 1934 catalogs only advertise the 1500 as 7 ft.

Maybe the 7’6” version started around 1935 and ended around 1937?
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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#19

Post by chugbug »

Thank you, Pete. (Mine's a D.)

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Re: Serial Numbered Cross 1500 4711xx?

#20

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, Are there any guesses on the 7244 serial number? It's on both the rod and bag tag. Thanks,

Jay Edwards

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