Impregnated rods and durability

[coolhl7]

Sorry for the newbie question but do impregnated rods like Orvis sustain less breakage than non impregnated?
I seem to notice that vintage Orvis rods rarely seem to have tips that are shorter due to breakage compared to some of the other vintage rods that are even more highly desirable as collectibles. Or is that just a function of some makers having designed tapers that are lighter and more delicate?
thanks.

[Caneghost]

A lot of the Orvis rods were rated for a number 6 fly line regardless of weight, so perhaps that is a factor. Water damage can be the downfall of any rod and the impregnated rods were conceived to be more resistant to water damage. I just had a 4 3/8 ounce Orvis tip break at the ferrule recently. Though there was no apparent damage visible from the outside, there was an old fracture in the cane beneath the silk wraps and black cane from water seepage over time that caused the break.

I do have a little better comfort level fishing an impregnated rod on rainy days, but I still dry them carefully before driving home, and I place them in the rack for a couple of days at home before they go back in the tube.

We can all get a little too ham handed sometimes on the water, or tired and slack a bit in wiping our rods dry at the end of the day. Anyone can have an accidental fall, etc. Is a fine tipped three weight Thomas more likely to break from accident or general clumsiness? Probably, though those eventualities will break impregnated rods, glass or graphite rods too. Fish the rods you enjoy the most and be as careful with them as you can!

[Hellmtflies]

Improper handling and or aggressive use can damage or break any rod impregnated or not. That's not to say that cane is tender. It's not, but treating any rod carefully will prevent many issues over the years. My 2 cents.

[jeffkn1]

I don't think impregnation increases a rod's resistance to breaking though it does make them waterproof and less susceptible to delam'ing. As pointed out, most Orvis (and South Bends as well when Jordan was there) were 6wt or heavier. Jordan once remarked that Cross used to do a lot of tip repairs on high end rods. Couple that with a longstanding belief that dry fly rods should be stiffer, and you end up with a heavier line weight and less breakage.
I had a customer who fished Orvis rods with 3 or 4 split shot on the leader to keep his streamers down and Orvis replaced two tip sections under warranty in the years I was at that store ('73-'79).
Mark, you'll probably recall that Ray's always handled Orvis. My customer was a construction worker who fished the No Kill a lot, near the Orange Pit.

[Flykuni3]

Impreg'd or not, water can pose problems for a rod, imho of course. It gets into places. Thus, I never soak my rods for a photo. Lots do, and I think they do themselves a disservice.

[joep]

I remember reading on here a discussion about seeetgrass and a lot of other western rods not having fine tips. I would think that is your biggest contributor to breaking tips vs not. Whenever I see "razor thin tips" used to describe a rod I see a rod that is going to have a hard time living it's life intact due to my random clumsiness.

[coolhl7]

I do worry because my only bamboo rod is a 3wt 7 ft 2.6 oz built on a Dennis Stone Leonard 38L blank. The tip is so thin I am constantly amazed at the expertise it must have taken to get all those "paper thin" strips together and look so perfect. I did get a small fishing set in one tip on my second day of using it after taking some photos with the rod in the water and throwing bulky hopper flies all day long. Amazingly the set came out when I got home by simply bending the tip in the reverse direction with NO heat at all. No more water touches my rod and no more hammering out hopper flies like it is a 9 ft 6wt Sage graphite. I have top of the line Sage, T&T and Hardy Graphite rods but it is the bamboo rod that I "look" at all the time and rather fish. I feel an addiction coming on!

[PYochim]

Impreg'd or not, water can pose problems for a rod, imho of course. It gets into places. Thus, I never soak my rods for a photo. Lots do, and I think they do themselves a disservice.

I don't understand that either. Putting a rod at risk for damage for a "Kodak Moment" isn't worth it.

[BigTJ]

You won't damage a rod by dunking it in the water occasionally. I heard a story from if I recall correctly Chris Carlin that he once dropped a rod (or somebody he knew dropped it) IN THE RIVER FOR WEEKS. He recovered it, re-varnished and did some repairs, and it had a respectable life after that.

Heck you could make a drift boat out of bamboo strips. Properly varnished it would last for decades. A varnished or impregnated rod will do just fine getting dunked once in a while. You don't need to baby them. Also moisture content equilibrates with the environment you can't keep water out and you also can't keep it in as long as the rod can "breath" and stays dry after being on (or in) the river.

Back to the OP's question breakage is more a function of outside factors. Something that will break a varnished rod will likely break an impregnated rod. Impregnation doesn't somehow make rods magically stronger and break resistant - it may add a bit of strength but not enough to resist a car door or the other typical tip busters. I've seen plenty of them broken over the years.

John

[Flykuni3]

Well, go right ahead, if'n you're relying on one successful outcome for a general, all-purpose rule to follow. I'm with the dry-is-best-option crowd. I've worked in an archives handling rare photos and papers, and what counts there is what I follow when I can with my rods: cool, dry, dim light. Care when handling. If taking lunch I move rod to a shady spot, away from clumsy pals.

You won't ever see me soaking a rod and reel -- of course they can take it (to an extent). I don't need to dry my rod out for days to make sure all moisture from the seat pocket is gone, or strip my reel down to spool to let line and backing dry. That's an avoidable waste of time imho.

[BigTJ]

Flykuni,

My opinion on this subject is not based on one outcome. It’s based on 30 years or fly fishing and 15 years of rod making. Bamboo is water proof (surprisingly tough to damaged by water - I’ve soaked strips for a week and then built rods out of them; bales are floated in the river in China to get them to market), epoxy and most other quality rodmaking glues are waterproof, varnish is waterproof. What part exactly of these waterproof materials has anything to do with rare photos and papers which are clearly not waterproof? The logic escapes me. It doesn’t hurt to keep your rods dry to the extent possible but at the same time it’s excessive worry to think a rod can be damaged by an occasional dunking. Or fishing in the rain. Do you not fish in the rain? Rods are built to be on the riverI say fish them have fun you don’t need to treat them like the Wicked Witch of the East.

When coming back from the river keep a towel in the car. Wipe the rod down and when you get home let the rod sit out overnight. You don’t have to let it dry for days.

John

[Flykuni3]

Ok, I’ll do what I am comfy with…yr backing dry yet? Simply said, it causes more problems than it solves, and if it rains I fish my impregnated rods, and a reel w little or no backing.

[Webfly]

As mentioned by the OP, not many short tipped Orvis rods compared to others. I'm under the impression that Orvis' impregnation process seems to be the best and is definitely durable.

[jhuskey]

As a generalization, Orvis rods are not fine tipped. Sure there are exceptions, but most were 6 weights and up, with beefier tips.

[rsagebrush]

Yes most were rated as 6 weights and up but many are fine and happy with lighter lines by a weight or two. As to the tip dimensions, well one would expect a very fine tipped rod to have some problems when it is abused and things get abused in the field not to mention clumsy owner's and using inappropriate weighted flies on them. I assume Orvis (perhaps Winston) decided to bypass the problem by making stouter tips.

In any event impregnated Orvis rods don't seem to take a set, although I'm sure some may have, or break very often as I don't see many offered with short sections. But I'm sure there are fisher's around that can destroy even an Orvis rod.

I see no reason not to fish a varnished rod in the rain, just dry it off and dry it out when you get back to base, I've never noted a problem.