Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

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JamesEric
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Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#1

Post by JamesEric »

1st of all, I’m James Karlak, currently residing in Wyoming for contract work near the North Platte. Before that, Colorado and Oregon. A true trout and ski bum. A life well lived. I joined this group years ago, then re-upped when Tapatalk required me to. I think before under a different user name. I apologize for no introduction til now. A little about me. I’m 61 now and learned formal restoration from years hanging around, Steve Blake of Sisters Or, Gary Soeffker of Missoula MT among others starting back in my 20’s. I’ve done some restoration work for Rick’s Rods and many others. Now I have more vintage rods than I’ll ever fish and more importantly, restore. Including a vast collection of original new old stock materials. When I started collecting, vendors like Len Codella listed rods as MR (mint restored) but lately I’ve noticed their value has slipped. A lot. John Shaner, a well known Hardy rep and collector of premium bamboo fly rods once told, “you can’t give away a restored rod “. My question for any of you in the know, Is John correct in your opinion? And why? Please RSVP.
In defense of my personal collection of faithfully restored (with modern epoxy and correct new old stock materials), they are ready for another 100+ years of use.


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Hellmtflies
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#2

Post by Hellmtflies »

For myself I'm not a fan of restored rods, "MR" or otherwise. But that's just me.

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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#3

Post by RAZINGKANE »

I personally find the restore/not to restore very unsettling. This is unrelated, but a very valid case in point. I've been collecting antique bicycles since the early 1970's. Fifty years ago I had no problem restoring a high wheel from the 1880's, at that point about 80 years old. Now in the 2020's, when those same bikes are 130 years old, I could kick myself for the sacrilege since I will never again be able to recapture the pure originality I so callously cast aside on those machines. The original brushed lacquer paint finish, the peeling but still likable nickel plating, the over all look lovingly put together in the last century ( OK, now in the second to last century) that was immediately lost when I started my "restoration".
To put this in perspective 80 years ago was the 1940's. Will you kick yourself in the butt (or will someone curse your memory) if you commit a restoration? This will be a highly personal decision and I don't believe there is a right or wrong answer. What I do believe is that the relative rarity of the rod and the irreplaceability of the aesthetics should ultimately define the decision. In many ways when you come to the important rods (or what WILL be important in the future), take a deep breath and decide if the historical/dollar value is a matter of consideration before stripping the rod. Strictly an opinion, and like I said, no right or wrong answer, just a question that will need to be addressed on a more active scale as untouched and unmolested vintage bamboo is sure to become increasingly rare as the years go by.

John Niemann

bluesjay
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#4

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys,

+1 RAZINGKANE

But, in addition will say I have done a lot of restoration and repairs since 1977. I'm 77 and also owned a fly shop and sold a lot of consignment rods for dealers. One rod stands out as an example. A consignment rod was sold to an angling author who had and does write about bamboo. Sometime later he returned to say that the rod was restored. I didn't know that. He had apparently showed the rod to experts in his circle who identified it. He didn't ask to return it or for a price adjustment. He didn't show me the rod. It was that good. I sold any number of rods on consignment for other dealers. Some restored by Steve Blake, Dwight Lyons and others as restored rods. This was in the late 90's. My point here is who can tell? Who can tell what shape a rod is in before restoration starts, what work was done, etc.
Well, you can in the case of your rods. You also have mentors and knowledgeable customers to vouch for you. You're in better shape than I am. I gotta lotta stuff.
When I do restorations I leave a 'tell', preferably original varnish on a signature, but something obvious. This opens another distracting discussion, and Jeff Hatton has opinions. There are any number of posts about this.
I can't really speak to the prices, although I watch the cane market. I don't buy, but I'd see no reason to reject a properly restored rod, particularly by the restorer. Heh, of course, that could be self serving on my part sometime. I'm not selling now; I'm making/fixing/restoring.


Jay Edwards

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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#5

Post by jeffkn1 »

JamesEric wrote:
10/04/21 12:12
1st of all, I’m James Karlak, currently residing in Wyoming for contract work near the North Platte. Before that, Colorado and Oregon. A true trout and ski bum. A life well lived. I joined this group years ago, then re-upped when Tapatalk required me to. I think before under a different user name. I apologize for no introduction til now. A little about me. I’m 61 now and learned formal restoration from years hanging around, Steve Blake of Sisters Or, Gary Soeffker of Missoula MT among others starting back in my 20’s. I’ve done some restoration work for Rick’s Rods and many others. Now I have more vintage rods than I’ll ever fish and more importantly, restore. Including a vast collection of original new old stock materials. When I started collecting, vendors like Len Codella listed rods as MR (mint restored) but lately I’ve noticed their value has slipped. A lot. John Shaner, a well known Hardy rep and collector of premium bamboo fly rods once told, “you can’t give away a restored rod “. My question for any of you in the know, Is John correct in your opinion? And why? Please RSVP.
In defense of my personal collection of faithfully restored (with modern epoxy and correct new old stock materials), they are ready for another 100+ years of use.
James
I know John Shaner is highly regarded among both anglers and collectors but his opinion is neither right nor wrong. No doubt he can offer anecdotal information to support his opinion but it will never be anything more than his opinion.
Being a Wheeler collector, I have followed market prices for Wheelers for 20+ years. They've generally been undervalued if you ask me. One of the higher priced examples I saw sold was an 8' bait rod that had been completely redone to new condition, including replacing one whole section with new bamboo. To this day I have not seen another example bring even half of what this one did, fine original conditioned ones notwithstanding. That doesn't make me right and John wrong, but it does show opinions vary. That's what makes for horse races, as the saying goes.
Our state museum (Augusta, ME) has a rare, unmarked split bamboo rod that is sound but has been losing intermediate wraps owing to insufficient coating. The provenance states it surfaced in Rangeley in 1872, so it's possibly 1871 or earlier. All the thread is dry-rotting and the wraps are cracking. Left to deteriorate long enough, no one will know what it was wrapped with, and the rare, handmade guides will disappear. A drop of shellac on each wrap would both glue them to the cane and true up the faded colors, as well as keep the guides secure. Nothing has been done, as far as I know. Museums generally favor as-found condition but, unless I'm mistaken, valuable oils on canvas are maintained with whatever is deemed justifiable. Tears are repaired. Flaking paint is sometimes touched up. Frames are trued up, touched up, and made secure. If it's to be exhibited, there's no value in preserving the signs of deterioration or, at least, that's what we can gather from restorative work.
I am speaking only of old tackle, meaning anything predating WW I in my view. Once you go beyond there a rod is less likely to be fished on a regular basis. But, regardless of vintage, a rod that has missing sections and/or hardware, fried varnish, splits, or delams from improper storage, has certainly lost a significant part of it's value and deserves to have issues remedied, up to, and including, complete overhauling.
There's no hard and fast rule but I'd rather save what has integrity, rather than save the rot. And that's all my opinion, but most people in the circles in which I travel feel pretty much the same, neither right nor wrong, but we're fine with it. It worked for A.J.

PT48
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#6

Post by PT48 »

It is still okay to fish refinished or restored rods, isn't it?

Webfly
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#7

Post by Webfly »

80% of Heddons and Heddon trade rods need to be stripped and re-varnished, in turn, re-wrapped and the ferrules re-set. I think that many of these restored Heddons trade hands for good money, especially certain lengths and tapers.

I'm assuming that most of your restorations are blue collar rods, not museum pieces or high end collector rods. The blue collar rods are meant to be fished and a solid restored example, done correctly, holds a pretty good candle to a mediocre conditioned un-restored version.

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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#8

Post by Flyman615 »

If it bothers you that a classic bamboo fly rod has been restored or needs restoration, then don't buy it and/or fish it. (It's true that it's only 'original' once.)

If, on the other hand, you believe a classic bamboo fly rod deserves a proper restoration in order to be returned to the water for another 50-75 years, then go ahead and have it done.

In any case, the choice is yours and NOT anyone else's, OK?

Scott Z.
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para_adams
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#9

Post by para_adams »

+1 for Scott's perspective. Just don't ever knowingly sell a restored rod without disclosure. Yes, the famous author's experience will happen, but if old, good and even great rods were never restored, they'd rot away in closets, museum's and the odd collector's glass case. They were made to be fished and admired. Restore when needed, don't restore when historically valuable/rare. Let's go fishing...

Fly14me
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#10

Post by Fly14me »

Well James here my 2%. I don't build, restore, repair, or collect. Sort of collected once very short time. Me I fish all my rods, some originals, some restored, some repaired, some old tapers on new bamboo. (I'm a granger taper nut) I really agree with Scott Z. and para adams. Those old rods were built to fish period, and they have. My thought is that if you or someone likes or loves that taper or rod then fish it or fix n fish it or restore it n fish it. Enjoy the rod for what it is especially for what its was meant to do "catch fish and have fun doing it"! I have heard so many say are you crazy fishing that rod? Well no it's just doing what it was made for. As for the rare and in my opinion rare is only like less than 5 left and historical value well that to me means it should be in a museum under glass or a collector's glass box. If your always honest about it you can't go wrong. I stopped worrying a long time ago about what other's think or say (ok, wife excluded) I live to fish for trout with granger bamboo and tapers. Question is What Makes YOU HAPPY?

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bearbutt
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#11

Post by bearbutt »

If you plan to sell the rod, don't restore it. Don't polish it. Don't clean the grip. Just leave it bloody well alone, and let the person buying it decide what to do. Especially with a vintage rod from one of the better (or more uncommon) makers.

If you plan to fish it--do what you want, then fish the hell out of it. Only you will know what's under the wraps.

bb

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scarlet>fire
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#12

Post by scarlet>fire »

I purchase and fish both. I prefer to keep things all original but have no problem with restoration work if needed to keep fishing it. I have had rods completely restored, but only because they were un-fishable without a restoration. When a beloved rod gets a click in the ferrule- what are you going to do? For me, have a well respected maker (hopefully the original builder) fix it with a reset and new wrap. If I owned a truly exceptional, historical rod I would probably keep it all original, but otherwise have no issues w restoration/repair work if needed.

And I certainly respect that each have their own feelings/opinions about this topic, of course.

Best, Chris

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#13

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

hello;
first, do no harm.
second,do nothing that can not be reversed.
third, enjoy the rod.

regards, jim w

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#14

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

addenda,

concerning revarnishing - keep in mind it was customary to revarnish and rewrap as necessary every year after season was over. it may be pure speculation to conclude that wraps and varnish are original.

trgards, jim w

NewUtahCaneAngler
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#15

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

bearbutt wrote:
10/04/21 19:01
If you plan to sell the rod, don't restore it. Don't polish it. Don't clean the grip. Just leave it bloody well alone, and let the person buying it decide what to do. Especially with a vintage rod from one of the better (or more uncommon) makers.

If you plan to fish it--do what you want, then fish the hell out of it. Only you will know what's under the wraps.

bb
Eventually we, or our heirs may sell a restored rod, so this isn't really an option. Here is a good example: I just purchased a Heddon trade rod in a very desirable taper. The mid has an "invisible" repair wrap, but no guides. The only tip is about 4.5" short and had some guides. The reel seat is the combo plastic wooden downlocking version and the plastic is shot. The butt ferrule was pinned but was clicking and the stripping guide was loose. The rod had the usual Heddon varnish melt down. Now, IMHO, I had three options: 1) leave the rod alone as it may have had some minor historical value, but then it would be a decoration, 2) sell the rod to someone who wanted the rod to pursue option 1, or 3) have a new tip (or 2) and perhaps a mid (if required after inspecting what's under the existing repair wrap) made or have the existing tip scarfed and then rewrap the rod with modern (and more) snakes and a new stripper and reel seat and take it fishing.

Surprise! I chose option 3 and was able to save the model # and hook keeper wraps (lovely purple tipped in gold) and already reset the clicking ferrule. The rod was sent to a well known maker just today for tip and mid work. If I love the taper after the rod is complete, I'll keep it and fish it for a while. If the taper doesn't suite me, I guess a Minnesota Vikings fan will enjoy having a restored fishable rod in a very desirable Heddon taper. I have no problem with anyone here who would have chosen option 1.

Tight lines,
Joe

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roycestearns
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#16

Post by roycestearns »

+1 to everyone ... there's no black and white answer

I'll throw this in the mix. Repairs from a shop in the 1880's ... do we really know what we have?

Leonard repaired
Image
Murphy repaired
Image
Conroy and Wheeler repaired
Image

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quashnet
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#17

Post by quashnet »

It is wonderful to see that this topic has brought forth those 1880s repair documents. Indeed there is no black-and-white, one-size-fits-all answer. I love the repair notation for the Leonard rod - "our new 2nd joint, stiffer." I wonder whether anyone could tell the difference when the work was done.

After years of study I have concluded that there are very few Paul H. Young rods that have undergone no repairs or modifications. When I see an unblemished example, I begin with the assumption that the rod has been restored, and then go on from there to evaluate the rod.

Years ago I owned PHY Parabolic 15 #4378. It appeared to be an all-original, oil-finished Young rod. The owner's name, Malcolm B. "Mac" Seaholm, was inked on the rod. I was able to get in contact with Mac, who kept detailed records of all his Young rods. Thus I learned that major modifications had been made to Para 15 #4378, which I would never have discovered by examining the rod. It was built in 1967 as a varnished rod for Bob Church of Mancelona, Michigan, who was the real estate agent who found the commercial property that the Paul H. Young Co. moved into when the company moved from the Detroit area to Traverse City, MI. On July 1, 1974, Mac acquired the rod from Bob Church in trade for a PHY Boat Rod and an Orvis Madison. Later in July 1974, Bob Summers removed the varnish and applied the oil finish that Mac preferred on all his fly rods. Summers removed Bob Church’s name from the rod and put Mac Seaholm’s name on it. Looking at the rod, you would never know that Church's name had been written there. Bob Summers also added new guides, and attended to some flaking on the ferrules on this rod. Two years later, on March 22, 1976, Bob Summers repaired the ferrule by removal, making a new disk, soldering the disk in place, and replacing the ferrule. Again, you would never know - or at least I would never know, had not Mac told me. The rod tube was damaged, so Mac got a new tube. The rod also has a replacement bag. Finally, there is a mystery about the reel seat that may never be resolved. Para 15 #4378 is a robust rod that is equipped with a strong screwlock reel seat. But the Young shop ledger says that it was built with two sliding bands. I asked both Mac and Bob Summers about the reel seat. Neither one could remember whether it had been changed. Was the 1967 notation in the ledger an error? We may never know. But when I sold the rod, everything that I researched about Para 15 #4378 was placed in a multipage provenance document which you can see here on the Spinoza web site. In my view, the best way to deal with restoration questions of an older rod is to document the human history surrounding the rod, and let the next potential buyer make his or her decision.
Please visit and bookmark the Paul H. Young Rod Database
Image
Other rod databases: Dickerson , Orvis , Powell

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JamesEric
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#18

Post by JamesEric »

Thank you for your very positive and amazing replies. I researched the group topic before this post. Most are from long ago and some attitudes have changed. I have restored multiple “above my pay grade”rods using Steve’s methods that include re-pinning ferrules and marine epoxy, wood bleach on black stains from oxidation, turned (carefully mic’d)cork grips, his secret color preserver and last McCloskey’s spar varnish that properly goldens up with age. I keep a journal with drawings, tapers, guide spacing and wrapping notes how they were originally built. Restored some real botch job handyman refinished rods back to original condition. IMHO it can’t tell which ones of those I’ve restored now. Years ago, a well known rod maker from Twin Bridges fabricated new sections for us, but the internet auction sites have made so many original pieces available that I eventually end up with lots of extra parts. For me, almost nothing better than a (Phoenix) rod that casts and fishes as intended.
Thanks again for your help settling my concerns.


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Eddie Southgate
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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#19

Post by Eddie Southgate »

I'm not a big fan of total restoration for my own rods and would not likely ever pay anything like top dollar for a completely restored rod . That is of course for vintage rods that's value to me is being as near original as I can find them . I will have fixed what needs fixing to make the rod functional and have it's varnish over coated but not stripped and refinished .

Rods by living makers I will send back for complete restoration by the maker .

MR = Mint Restored = Only if the restoration was done by the original builder to original specs . Restored to like new would in my opinion be a truer term .

I busted a mid on one of my m40 Leonard's the other week . It was a fairly clean break about 1/4" behind the female ferrule . No idea why it broke as I was casting 20 ft of 2DT and a 9ft leader I was working on for the small line. I will have it scarfed to full length . It is a rod that was restored by Steve Blake for the previous owner so is not original .
Wore out old rod junkie , WILL WORK FOR RODS .

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Re: Restoration of bamboo fly rods or not?

#20

Post by billems »

If John Shaner wants to give away any of his restored rods, I'll send him my address. I own a Granger Special restored by Mike Sinclair and it's the prettiest of that model I've ever seen--and more beautiful than the originals. The value to me depends on the quality of the restoration. I've seen horrendous repro jobs. But there're a handful of restorers--and your cv indicates that you're included--that can make a dogged up classic brought restored to perfection.

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