Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

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kermit
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Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#1

Post by kermit »

I got this somewhere, hope it helps someone.

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GrsdLnr
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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#2

Post by GrsdLnr »

Thanks - I'm not a Leonard collector, much less an expert on them - it's good to have some info dating the two rods I recently inherited. :skoal
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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#3

Post by Salar4me »

Super! On my way upstairs to check a stick!

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Greg Reynolds
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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#4

Post by Greg Reynolds »

Tom Maxwell's drawings of Leonard roll stamps have been discussed on the forum before. Some of the dates are incorrect.

I believe there was a comprehensive thread on the topic, but I couln''t find it. Here are a couple of others:
viewtopic.php?f=64&t=123263&p=845485&hi ... ps#p845485
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=133142&p=896476&hi ... ps#p896476

headwaters
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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#5

Post by headwaters »

Yes, I'm one of those who believes that document is inaccurate, at least with respect to all of the listings pre-1964. So, I wanted to lay-out my disagreements with that document as I have done before, along with the documentation on which I have relied, in an effort hopefully to seek confirmation or debunking of the information I have from other forum members, which I hope results in a better understanding for those of us who care about this stuff.

But, first, a tip of the hat to kermit for his generosity in sharing the information he has which I know was posted with the same objective!

The document kermit posted has floated around the Forum for some time. My copy of it includes the handwritten notation that it came from Tom Maxwell. The significance of that apparent attribution originally gave me pause, because it conflicted with some of the information I had found during my research. So, it led me to continue my research in an effort to try to better document the various sources for my conclusion.

Based on my research, I believe there were seven Leonard butt cap stampings from the first one Hiram used through the 1964 fire. (This does not include the inscribing on the upper handle ring of the dated 1873 Howells-Leonard rod (the first known 6-strip rod made by Hiram) in the AMFF collection, donated by the Howells.) (Sources: Schwiebert, E., Trout Tackle--Part Two, p. 24 (1978, 1984); Beelart, J., The Bamboo Fly Rods & Fly Fishing Legacy of Gary H. Howells, p. 190 (2013)).

The first one, used while he was working in Bangor in the early 1870s (and maybe only 1872-1874), and was reportedly the same one he used as a gunmaker, stamped on the reel seat. It was two lines of writing, as follows: "H.L. LEONARD" / "Maker." with scrolls on either side of the word, "Maker", inside a cartouche. (Sources: Campbell, A., Classic & Antique Fly-Fishing Tackle, p. 48 (1997); Beelart, p. 190; Jerry Girard presentation handout at 2018 Leonard Gathering at the CFFC&M, H.L. Leonard: A Short Biography (2018), and later posted on the Forum by Jeff Knapp on 03/07/2020).

The second one was the Abbey & Imbrie Sole Agents mark. It was used in the period 1875-1876, and consisted of five-lines of writing inside a cartouche, as follows: "H.L. Leonard" / "Maker." / "Abbey & Imbrie" / "N. York" / "SOLE AGENTS." (Sources: Keane, M., p. 39 (picture); Campbell, p. 49 (picture); Kelly, M., Early Leonard: Firm Dates and Guesses, pp. 2-3, and a Letter on Leonard by James K. Douglas, including the statement that the information for the letter was supplied by John Bradford, Marty Keane, and Tom Maxwell (2007); reprinted as Chapter 7 of The Origins of American Angling, Kelly, M. (2007); Girard handout).

The third one, used from late 1876 or 1877-1879, was the same as the first one, except that there was added a third line of writing under the cartouche, as follows: "Bangor, Me." (Sources: Keane, p. 44, (picture); Campbell, p. 50; Hatton, J., Rod Crafting -- A Full-Color Pictorial & Written History from 1843-1960, p. 31 (picture) (2005)).

The fourth one, used from 1879-1886 (or maybe until 1893), was the W. Mills & Son Sole Agents mark. It was five lines of writing inside a cartouche, as follows: "H.L. Leonard" / "Maker" / "W. Mills & Son" / "N. York" / "Sole Agents". (Sources: Campbell, p. 55-56; Hatton, p. 34 (picture); Kelly, p. 3; Anderson, C., H.L. Leonard Markings: A Revised Chronology, The American Fly Fisher, Vol. 36, No. 3, p. 18 (2010)).

The fifth one, used from 1887 (or maybe 1893)-1922, was another five line stamp inside a cartouche, as follows: "The" / "H.L. LEONARD" / "ROD" / "Leonard & Mills Co." / MAKERS". (Sources: Campbell, p. 56; 1922 Wm Mills & Son Fishing Tackle Catalog No, 122, p. 27 (line illustration of the reel seat stamp and statement that all genuine Leonard rods will bear this stamp on either the reel seat or butt cap); Anderson, p 18).

The sixth one, used from 1923-1928, was another five line stamp inside a cartouche, as follows: "THE" / "LEONARD" / "ROD" / "H.L. LEONARD ROD CO." / "MAKERS". (Sources: 1923 Mills & Son Fishing Tackle Catalog No. 123, p. 27, (line illustration and statement); Hatton, p. 221 (picture).

The seventh one, used from 1929-1964 (the fire), was the same as the sixth one, except that there was added a sixth line of writing below and outside the cartouche , as follows: "Reg. U.S. PAT. Off." (Sources: 1929 Mills & Son Fishing Tackle Catalog No. 129, p. 15 (line illustration and statement)).

This is the best information I have been able to assemble from my research. I know there are Forum members who have been at this longer than me. I offer my information with the invitation to those who believe they may have better, conflicting, or confirming information to please share it, along with their documentation, so that together we can arrive at the most accurate and complete record available.
Last edited by headwaters on 11/11/21 17:07, edited 8 times in total.

headwaters
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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#6

Post by headwaters »

Greg--

This may have been one of the comprehensive threads you were looking for.

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=128369&p=868568&hi ... ng#p868568

Rupert

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Greg Reynolds
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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#7

Post by Greg Reynolds »

Hi Rupert,

Thanks for making the effort to sort-out and share the chronology of the H. L. Leonard roll stamps--there's been a lot of confusion about them both here on the forum and in publications elsewere.

The link you posted is the thread I was looking for.

Regards,
Greg

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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#8

Post by Trains&Canes »

Headwaters: Your post is extremely helpful, and it represents a lot of work. I appreciate that very much. I have two early Leonards which I have tried to date, having been given much information right here on this forum. Based on your info, the older of the two is now the younger, and vice versa. I would love to see a new pictorial of all the stamps, like the one attributed to TM, with each stamp numbered so we can refer to a specific stamp when trying to identify an early Leonard. I am familiar with some of your sources, but can you give me the complete name of the "Hatton" source? Even with a clear timeline, who knows what butt cap might have been grabbed at the time a rod was finished. There will always be some uncertainty, but it is always great to get a little closer! To those of you who have posted images of old catalogue pages, a huge thank you to you as well!

headwaters
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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#9

Post by headwaters »

T&C--

The title of the Hatton book is in the paragraph that begins with the words "The third one . . .". The author's full name is Jeffrey L. Hatton (his handle on the Forum is "Gnome," and he is the owner, curator, and historian of the Gnomes Traveling Rod Show, a traveling museum of fishing rods from 1750-2010), and the publisher is Frank Amato Publications (2005). My guess is that you might even be able to get a signed hardcover or paperback copy through him, or -- if not -- a copy on the secondary market through other sources.

Adding pictures or facsimile drawings of the stamps is on my to-do list, as is completing the list for the post-1964 Leonard stamps. I was just trying to get the info out there as soon as I could in response to what I believe was an incorrect source.

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Greg Reynolds
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Re: Dating Leonard butt cap stamps

#10

Post by Greg Reynolds »

headwaters wrote:
11/14/21 17:02
...Adding pictures or facsimile drawings of the stamps is on my to-do list, as is completing the list for the post-1964 Leonard stamps.
I spent time a few years ago trying to determine the correct chronology of all Leonard roll stamps. I did this by downloading rod, tube & label photos and using a few other resources like Joel's Leonard database. https://antiquerodandreels.com/databases/leonarddb

It wasn't intended for public consumption, but I thought I'd add what I learned about the post-fire roll stamps after seeing Headwater's last post. The sequence of use is correct, some of the dates are likely a little off.

The stamp used from 1964 until ~1974, and then again for the 1980's impregnated "Red Wrap" and the ~1984 acrylic-finished "Deluxe":
Image

The primary stamp used from ~1974 to ~1978, and less frequently to 1984:
Image

The primary stamp used from ~1978 to 1984:
Image

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