describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#1

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

are you like me in that you have a rod or rods which, every time you look at any rod you think: "i wish i knew for certain what is 'that' rod's pedigree?

i will start the thread by re-visiting my most intriguing fly rod. Image Image
it is a nine foot rod with a patented landmann reel seat. it looks almost identical to an early nine foot payne which i have.
i have considered several perplexing alternatives:
1) it could be a payne made rod with a landmann reel seat.
2) it could be a payne refinished rod as the silk colors are the same as the aforementioned payne rod and the ferrules could be early payne.
3) it could be a landmann rod refinished by someone unknown.
4) it could be assembled or refinished by charles d lovell, poland, n y; as that information is on the shaft of the rod.
5) the ferrules could be montague. they are 1/64th larger than the ones on the payne.
6) it could be a frankenrod and i wlill never know the maker but will keep guessing!

this may not be the best page for this topic but i surmise it gets the most traffic.

thanks for your participation, regards, jim w
Last edited by Seabowisha Salmo T on 11/13/09 06:57, edited 1 time in total.

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quashnet
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#2

Post by quashnet »

This puzzling rod appears to be a very early Paul H. Young Dry Fly Special. 7-1/2', 3/2, cap and ring, the Young "Detroit" stamp on the butt cap, very finely mortised wood seat, cigar grip, metal winding check, ring hookkeeper, swelled butt, orange and black wraps below hookkeeper, black wraps at guides with dark staining of cane at these wraps, plus other black stains (not flame marks) elsewhere, red agate stripping guide, inked handwriting "Paul H. Young / Dry Fly Special" on two flats, two tips are each a bit short. Node spacing is random.

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What is it? Possibly a much-refinished, early 1930's Heddon-built or Heddon kit rod, or a 1930's rod that Paul Young rebuilt. This kind of guessing is necessary because rod descriptions are vague or non-existent in the 1930's Young catalog materials. It was the Depression, and Young had to assemble rods from components, or subcontract their assembly, using whatever materials might be scrounged at any given time to try to make a buck. So probably rods varied a lot within a given model like the "Dry Fly Special." The 1933 catalog does say that Dry Fly Specials are 8'0" or 8'6". A 7'6" model is not mentioned there, but I know of two other early 7'6" rods that share some characteristics with this rod.

The line drawing below is from Young's first tackle catalog which dates to 1927. Aside from the dark-to-light thread reversal in the decorative wraps between the hookkeeper and the inked lettering, the rod completely matches the drawing. I am sure that the rod was not messed with to match the drawing. The rod was owned for thirty years by Jim Schaaf, co-author with Gerald Stein of the definitive book on Lyle Dickerson. Schaaf did not alter it and frankly, prior to that time, there would have been no reason to fake an early Young. There wouldn't have been any money or any interest in it.

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So what are the origin and history of this PHY Dry Fly Special? Who built it? Which parts did Paul H. Young fabricate or assemble? Was the rod rebuilt? How many times? Who did the crude refinish after the tips were broken? Oh, and after all the mysteries are contemplated, you can still go fishing with it.

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Please visit and bookmark the Paul H. Young Rod Database
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Other rod databases: Dickerson , Orvis , Powell

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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#3

Post by Flyman615 »

My most puzzling rod is a mint 7 1/2-foot, 3/2 rod which is unmarked, but has characteristics of both Granger and Phillipson rods.

It has an unswelled butt, is varnished and has Phillipson-style ferrules. It's wrapped deep red with brown accent wraps and has a gold, Phillipson-like tube. The most interesting feature is an unmarked Granger n/s up lock reel seat with a walnut filler.

In his opus, "Trout", Schwiebert opined these rods were "Granger DeLuxes...undoubtedly made by Phillipson." I don't agree. I believe this rod was made in the 1970's by Paul Hightower, a former Phillipson employee and reel seat designer, late of Bob's Tackle Shop-Denver. Image
Flyman615

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bluejayee
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#4

Post by bluejayee »

Hi Guys, I may think I know what the Granger rod is. If the hardware on the reel seat is W/M/Granger then I believe there was a couple with a fly shop in 1979-80 in Greeley, Colorado that modified the reel seats as they finished out blanks they got at Bob's Tackle. This is what I remember. But, the person who would remember is Betty Malara, Bob's wife. She and Paul Hightower, of course, worked together at Phillipson and Bob's. Jay Edwards

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FWdB
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#5

Post by FWdB »

http://classicflyrodforum.com?topic=23973

Another mystery solved, but I reckoned that it might be interesting to post the link here, for those who missed it.
I've compiled the story of this rod, with some extra pictures, in my profile.

Great thread, this forum works!

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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#6

Post by caddisman3 »

Good friend Marshall Wardwell has a Colorado made rod from Bigger Brothers that is a real sleeper,very good looking rod and fantastic cane work.Pretty much a Granger taper,smooth full flexing rod that is probably a 4 or 5wt.I hope he posts some pics,and does anyone else one of these beuties.
Karl

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TheMontyMan
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#7

Post by TheMontyMan »

Jim,

Your rod (first one posted in this thread) appears decidedly Landmanesque to me. I have what I believe is a Landman rod (Empire City stamp on the reel seat) with nearly the same winding check, 1/4" cork rings, and the grip is a similar shape to yours. That said, I have a rod nearly identical to my Landman rod that was made by Montague (with a Montague trademarked stamp on the reel seat). It also has nearly the same winding check, 1/4" cork rings and similar grip shape. Additionally, its ferrules are nearly identical to the Landman rod I have as well. Montague used 2 different Landman style reel seats on at least 2 rod models that I've seen advertised so far, and I would expect there could be others.

The ferrules may be the key. I'm not sure, but I have not heard of Landman using Montague/Chubb ferrules, but Montague definitely produced Landman style ferrules. Can you post a better close-up of the ferrules, including a male ferrule or two?? Can you post a pic of the signature windings, if there are any. If not, is there any ghosting of former signature wraps?

. . . Rex TheMontyMan
. . . Rex
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Seabowisha Salmo T
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#8

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

i intend to respond to each reply idividually.

your rod is most interesting. you have amassed an excellent presentation of known facts and compelling circumstantial evidence. concerning the wrap colors on your rod, i have an 8 1/2 foot special streamer f e thomas rod which is identical to one belonging to Dennis with the single exception that all the thread colors are reversed. perhaps this is due to caprice, or perhaps the rod winder wanted to keep the thread on the spools approximately even. we may never know.

it is my wish that you discover the determinitave proof of the original maker of your rod.

thank you for your participation in the thread.

regards, jim w

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nwdlj
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#9

Post by nwdlj »

This one is both puzzling as it at first appears to be a mismatched rod but also from a well known owner, the Michigan guide and fly tier Earl Madsen...I am going to restore it as I received it, i.e with all the mysteries that the rod represents....basically, I bought it from Earl Madsen's nephew and he sent me info on Earl. There is a small piece of label taped on the rod that attests to that the rod was owned by Earl Madsen. It states "Earl Madsen, Guide Fly Tier, Grayling Michigan, Star Route 1" I have researched him and Mr. Madsen was a guide in the era of Dickerson, Young and the Classic bamboo rod era of Heddon. His nephew sent me pictures of him with those makers and he definitely was a friend. That is also shown on John Pickard's excellent website of historical photos of all of them together...the rod that his nephew sent is a two piece rod of uneven sections, the butt section being from a 32" 8' Model 60 (sorry about the glare, but it is a 60) and the second section a 5 foot section that appears to be from a different rod, looking at first like a casting rod....but on closer inspection, these two sections have what appears to be original and matching characteristics like the ferrule, wrapping colors and construction, the bamboo having the same coloration and appearance. I have now started thinking that maybe it wasn't a set of mismatched pieces and maybe purpose built.
The butt section is very puzzling as it is definitely marked as a Heddon Deluxe #60 and the handle is cork and reelseat is a downlocking pyralin and cedar. Both the handle and the reelseat have not been modified, added or anything other than original but the handle is not as per a Model 60, its a cork handle in the Model 17 style and not the wooden engraved type that was typical for the Model 60. But I did read in Sinclair's Heddon reference that it is said that the factory would make any handle as ordered so why not the cork? Part of the mystery. The other puzzling thing is that the ferrule is a matching fit. The butt female ferrule is a black hand welted ferrule typical of the high end fly rods....but the tip section is also of that type which wasn't typical for the casting rods, they used different ferrules for the ones that I have seen...and the fit is perfect, the ferrule pops, is tight and definitely fitted, both pinned in what appears to be an original installation...in all appearance, it is a matched set. Even if a ferrule fits together, if it is unmatched, it can been seen as different. Unfortunately, the varnish has been stripped and the wrappings removed so I can't tell about that.
The tip has had its varnish stripped and so I can't match the varnish but the tip does have snake guides, not the typical casting guides, so maybe it was built as a tip for the rod. Again, a part of the mystery. As far as wrap colors and style, the guide wraps do match from butt and tip, both in color and also in style. They also appear to be a professional or factory style, with expert black tipping, matched wraps, rather than the typical amateur style of not using tipping, unmatched wrapping lengths, and also not keeping the tipping the same on each wrap...that is for the ones that I can see as the wrappings are in poor shape.
The more I look at this rod, the more it appears to possibly be a custom made rod out of the Heddon factory. That surely could happen as Mr. Madsen guided out of Grayling Michigan which would have given him access to the Heddon factory...also, what with the articles that his nephew sent me, he was a very well known, guide, flytier, and much sought out for his knowledge. And being a friend of Lyle Dickerson, why not use a rod by him as he was reputed to be the guides choice? Why? Maybe because of getting a custom rod built to his specs by Heddon....it does appear to possibly be purpose built the more I look at it...or maybe just some pieces he was able to get and build a rod from...who knows, maybe never, but I am going to restore it as is and not try to rebuild it as a Model 60...and fish it as Earl once did....btw, I also bought a Model 17 Black Beauty of his too, so that maybe says that he preferred Heddon's...or maybe Heddon preferred outfitting him given his stature at that time, they were known to use such people as supporters of Heddon products...again, no one knows and this rod will remain a puzzling mystery...dj

UPDATE:
I have had some more information about Earl Madsen and his rods turn up due to this thread, so thanks very much to all who knew Earl and told me about him and his rods and his contemporaries....quite an interesting group of men....and consequently, I am going to restore this rod as it currently exists as it is very possible that it was purpose built this way, probably one of the oddest Model 60's that were ever made...it certainly made me a believer in Heddon's reputation for their custom shop making whatever a customer desired. From now on, when I get a Heddon that is a non standard combination or doesn't fit the known examples, I'll look at them with an eye of maybe that's exactly how it was made...dj

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Last edited by nwdlj on 11/01/09 13:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#10

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

this is certainly one well-conserved fly rod. i suspect Jay Edward's memory is good, so you have an excellent opportunity to determine the maker of your rod.

thank you for an interesting narrative and, hopefully, a successful solution to your mystery.

regards, jim w

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#11

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

hello, Wilfred,

thank you for the images of a beautiful cane fly rod, and for the wonderful story of your discovering the maker and discussing the rod with the son of the maker. a rare episode indeed.

regards, jim w

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#12

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

hello,

thank you for the reply. yes, it would be interesting if mr. wardwell would post images of his rod.

regards,

jim w

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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#13

Post by Pentalux »

This came from an antique store in the middle of Maine sometime in the 70's... Always curious if there was any way to ID the maker. Rapped wire tip top and loose ring guides.
ImageImageImageImageImageImage

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#14

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

hello rds,

i believe you have a "poacher's walking stick". it's origin is probably english or irish. great condition.

thanks, jim w

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bdcanefly
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#15

Post by bdcanefly »

I have so many unknown rods it would fill a thread....
I will try to post the oddest......

Great topic by the way!!!

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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#16

Post by jeffkn1 »

RDS
There's a good possibility that your alleged poacher's walking stick is a Charles Wheeler tip tube. Wheeler's early rods had tiptops formed from twisted wire, and his tiptube caps were marked with concentric rings. Also, his tiptubes were reinforced with a band of brass at the bottom.
I'll post pix when I get the chance.

Jeff

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Alaric11
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#17

Post by Alaric11 »

Purchased from a reputable online dealer the rod was described as a 3pc 9' Payne 400 for A & F that had one new replacement tip, was newly re- varnished and was straight, tight, very fishable with an 8wt line for Salmon/ Steelhead. I got it at a good price (not really collectible with one replacement tip and in the long heavy line weight BUT perfect to USE for steelhead and salmon). The rod is in fantastic shape, the work is great, and it casts like a dream (ie I'm happy with it whatever it is). After a few months I kept thinking: "it seems short for a 9' rod. Measured it and it is 8'6". All the sections are the same length and the right length for an 8'6" 3pc Payne. SO---the dealer said he must have "just eyeballed her" and that I probably had a Payne Canadian Canoe or Payne Streamer rod---which would be a bonus for me. Oddly the rod's weight is way off for either of these (5 1/4 to 5 3/4 ounces)---the three original sections weight 6.7 ounces. So---I have no idea WHAT I have.

Image

Image

I have read that you need to add 1/2 ounce to the Payne rod weights for the uplocking screw seat---BUT that just bumps a Streamer up to 6.25 ounces. Maybe 0.35 ounces of new varnish??? So I have a Streamer ?? If so, DAMN---I wanted a PCC!
Last edited by Alaric11 on 11/03/09 12:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#18

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

i have researched the archives for f e thomas, edwards, payne, t&e, t,e & p, montague, empire city, kosmic, izaak walton, radio city, and landmann; and yes, i am nearly blind.

i have concluded that i do have a landmann rod. it is most likely that f e thomas and payne purchased and finished out landmann rod blanks in the early days of their individual rodmaking careers. this can explain the similarities between this rod and some early payne rods i have examined.

the ferrules now on the rod are clearly replacements added when the rod was refinished, probably of montague manufacture. these ferrules changed the mechanics of the rod in that the butt is currently 3/8 " shorter than the mid and the tip is 9/16 " longer than the mid .

the cork grip is assembled from 1/8 inch cork rings, not 1/4 inch rings.

thank you for your informative reply to my question.

regards, jim w

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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#19

Post by Telecaster »

Here's the link to an old thread about my unknown model HI 7' footer. It's definitely a better grade HI...just wish I knew which one.

http://classicflyrodforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?&t=18369

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describe your most puzzling collectable rod or rods - four mysteries solved?

#20

Post by PaducahMichael »

Your Heddon #60 is odd because of the strange configuration, but I was studying the old Heddon catalog the other day and noticed that the #60 was available - on special request - with a cork grip and "the same reel seat as used on the #35" which is exactly what you have there. Still have not found any reference to the strange staggered ferrule configuration. I'll keep looking! Probably a special order rod all around. And the only one like it I've seen or heard of. Very interesting!
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