intervals of intermediate wrappings on FET

Norimasa · Post by **Norimasa** » 12/21/09 04:20

Dear all

Discussion has been repeated many times for dating F. E. Thomas rod, mainly based on the die stamp on the end of butt cap.
A. J. Campbell wrote in his excellent book "Classic and Antique Fly Fishing Tackle" that the older the FET rod is, the shorter the intervals between intermediate wrappings get. He also explained that the older it is, the nearer the stripping is situated from the grip.
For example, I measured my old FET Special (3 piece, 9'00", stamped '4' on the butt cap) with intermediate wrappings. On top of the 3-3-3 decorative wrapping, the interval of the first two intermediate wrappings was about 2.4cm wide, that is, slightly shorter than 1 inch long. All the intervals till the stripping are almost the same width. The number of intervals between the top of the decorative wrapping and the stripping is 19.
What is the case on your lovely FET?

Norimasa

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 12/21/09 15:33

an early 9 feet 0 inches special with the number 4 on the butt. measurements are:

from the ending of the "decorative"-signature wraps to the first intermediate wrap is 11/16 inch

there are ninteen intermediate wraps between the signature wraps and the stripping guide

the interval between these ninteen intermediate wraps is one (1) inch measured c-c

the measured distance between the hook-keeper and the stripping guide is 22 and 1/2 inches

regards, jim w

Norimasa · Post by **Norimasa** » 12/24/09 02:09

Dear Seabowisha Salmo T

Thank you for your reply.
It is quite interesting to see the may-be-identical FET.
Images of mine are listed on;
http://blog.goo.ne.jp/norisan69/e/c5814 ... 3b18f20ae4

Norimasa

North country brookie · Post by **North country brookie** » 12/24/09 05:08

Norimasa,

My 8'-6" FET Special has a 3 stamped on the butt cap. The signiture windings are in a 3-1-1-3-1-1 pattern, and it is 1" to the first intermediate above that, with 15 intermediates between the signiture wraps and the stripping guide. The hook keeper is on the winding check at the top of the grip, and there are 9 intermediates between every snake guide.

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 12/27/09 09:00

hello norimasa

the rods appear to be almost identical. the difference i can note from your images is that your rod has the beautiful all-cork seat and handle while mine has the wooden reel seat insert. the rods would need to be measured in order to determine if the tapers are the same. this is very interesting. the number on the butt cap may be the code for the wrap scheme!

i regret that i can not provide images at this time but i will endeavor to re-possess my digital camera.

highest regards, jim winfree

Norimasa · Post by **Norimasa** » 12/28/09 01:53

Dear North country brooki>

Thnak you for your indispensable reply.
I do understand the width among intermediates can be different from one to another in the case of FET.

Dear. Jim>

Your discussion is quite interesting.
I would like to contribute in your own thread!

norimasa

FF Papa · Post by **FF Papa** » 12/28/09 16:12

The third from the top is a F. E. Thomas 9' 3/2 Special Tournament has bulls eye with No. T over 755 and the forth rod down is a F. E. Thomas 9' 3/2 Special has bulls eye with No. 7 FF Papa

FFP

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 12/29/09 09:54

dear norimasa,

the second nine foot f e thomas "special" rod i have is configured in this manner:

the handle and reel seat is all-cork. the butt cap is of the "streamer" type, marked with an equilateral triangle on the butt within two (2) concentric rings. i believe the concentric rings were stamped on the butt-caps as a guide to "holing" the rod for an extension butt.

this rod may have been - probably was - completely re-wrapped.

the signature wraps are: all red; three(3) - seven(7) - three(3) - one(1).

there are twenty one (21) intermediate wraps, eleven(11) thin and ten(10) thick, between the signature wraps and the stripping guide. they alternate from thin(6 turns) to thick(3/8 inch or .60 cm). all wraps on this rod are red.

the distance from the hookkeeper to the stripping guide is twenty and 5/8 inches(20 5/8 inches).

the rod has two tips, one is exactly six(6) inches short from the tip with a different tip-top than the other.

the distance between the intermediate wraps is thirteen sixteenths(13/16) inches, measured center to center.

this information may not help much.

jim

Norimasa · Post by **Norimasa** » 01/01/10 02:37

Dear Jim and FF papa

Thank you for your contribution.
I really understand there exist many variations in intermediate wrapping pattern.
Anyway, your FET collection is splendid indeed, FF papa!

Regards,

norimasa

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/06/10 02:30

dear norimasa,

there do not seem to be many f e thomas rods with intermediate wraps among the current forum membership.

as no one has so far offered a differing opinion concerning our suggestion that the marks stamped on the butt caps may be related to taper/ferrule size/wrap color, this supposition may turn out to be the correct one; and the numbers may not be related to a "date made" code after all.

very interesting.

highest regards, jim w

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/06/10 05:40

I'm inclined to think the numbers are neither a date code nor an indication of length/taper.

8' Dirigo 3/2 - very early, snake stripper, round tiptops, all metal SB reelseat with #22 stamped to buttcap.
7 1/2' Special 3/2, very early, SB reelseat over cedar spacer. no number stamp on buttcap, just bullseye and standard Thomas rollstamp.
7 1/2' Dirigo, 3/1, early, snake stripper, SB reelseat over cedar, #8 stamped on buttcap which is stamped " Wm Read & Sons Boston, FE Thomas Maker"
8' Mahogany Special, 3/2, no intermediates,snake stripper, SB blued reelseat over mahogany spacer, #8 stamp on buttcap.

There are more, I need to dig them out or remember them. After comparing rods and numbers with a number of forum members a while back, we decided:
It's not the length, taper or ferrule size, nor is it the reelseat hardware itself.

That said, I'd love to be proven wrong because I'd like to know if these numbers have meaning which can be deciphered.

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/06/10 09:03

short tip,

thanks for the information. i remember the discussion but do not remember whether it occured before the migration to yuku. at that time, i did not know that my and norimasa's nine foot rods marked "4" were identical except for the reel seat style; his being all cork handle and reel seat and mine having the wood insert. i also did not know that my nine foot and eight foot rods marked "4" had interchangeable ferrules measuring approximately 17/64 inch or @.265 inch and 10/64 inch or @.155 inch. the eight foot rod having the all metal reel seat. so that is three rods marked "4" with three different reel seat styles.

i know it is a lot of work, but could you furnish norimasa with the measurements he is requesing for your rods which have intermediates? i suspect there is at least a relationship between the placement of the stripper and the distance between the intermediates and the "period" in which a particular rod was artificed.

also, could you describe the signature wraps. and the thread colors used for all wraps on those same rods? thanks in advance, jim w

cwfly · Post by **cwfly** » 01/06/10 09:37

This is interesting but remains as far I can tell, unanswered.

This is (at least) the third siscussion. An earlier discussion is found at this link which also contains an earlier link.

Charlie

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/06/10 09:53

charlie,

i beleive you were the first to mention this "dilemma" a few years back.

highest regards. jim w

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/06/10 10:50

Here goes with 2 I have at hand:

8' Dirigo 3/2 - very early, snake stripper, round tiptops, all metal SB reelseat with #22 stamped to buttcap.
Butt ferrule is 14/64. Sig wrap is 3-1-3. 9 intermediates between sig wrap and stripper. Winding check to center of stripper is 12 1/2" Space between intermediates (on butt section) about 1 3/16" Wraps are pongee, rod appears all original, varnish has ambered so I may be a little off on wrap color.

7 1/2' Dirigo, 3/1, early, snake stripper, SB reelseat over cedar, #8 stamped on buttcap which is stamped " Wm Read & Sons Boston, FE Thomas Maker"
Butt ferrule is 13/64. Sig wrap is 9 close spaced wraps. 10 intermediates between sig wrap and stripper. Space between intermediates (on butt section) about 1 3/16" Winding check to center of stripper is 13 1/2" Wraps are red, rod is not original but intermediates may be and everything appears to be as original.

Are we confident that these butt caps were stamped after being installed on the rod?

I love the earlier "close" stripping guides - they seem weird at first but they pull the action farther down the rod making it a little fuller working. I'm confident you could "speed up" these rods by moving the stripper up the shaft, but I wouldn't want to.

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/06/10 11:19

thanks again, short tip,

no, i am not at all comfortable that the butt caps would have been stamped after being installed on the rod. i believe, especially in the case of the full metal reel seats, they "should" have been stamped prior to installation. nickel silver is "soft" but maybe not soft enough to not give some damage to the rod by stamping them after the fact.

those, indeed, do appear to be two early rods

one other question:
could the "22" on the eight foot rod possibly be a "double stamp"? the reason i ask is that i have an 1847 colt with the butt of the backstrap stamped 101X twice, once lightly and not completely readable and the second stamping (superimposed but slightly off the light stamping) was heavy and easily readable. in times past, these "serial numbers" normally had very specific meanings for the artisans/mechanics who were assembling these various complicated tools.

highest regards, jim w

cwfly · Post by **cwfly** » 01/06/10 11:31

Short Tip, I have no confidence about whether the stamps were applied to the rods before or after the butt caps were mounted. I remain of the very loose opinion that there is something about the limited cluster of numbers at the same time understanding that we have a very small sample of rods from a pretty good output. But is it then a random cluster? Single digits, no teens, and mostly 30's. No I understand that when Leon took over he used shop logs with a coding system that indicates when the rod was made and, I believe, some details about the rod to whom it was then first sold. This gives the maker a tracking system. Might Leon have been trying to improve on a much less detailed earlier system that his father used? I thought for a bit that the stamps could relate to retailers, but I now don't necessarily think that information would require such a stamp. I also thought the stamp could relate to a taper/pattern book, but the same number does not seem to show up on the same length rods. The only person who would need to know what the stamp meant, in the end, was Fred Thomas and then only for two reasons I can presently think of. One, if someone saw one of his rods and wanted it duplicated. But I don't think that works. The numbers just do not seem that detailed. The other reason I speculate about is whether, given the limited number of numbers, they relate to the identity of a person(s) in the shop who performed some important task on the rod and, should it fail or otherwise need repair, the person could readily be identified. Beats the hell out of me. Any other pure speculation is welcome. Charlie

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/06/10 11:37

being fortunate enough to have access to the three early rods marked "4" on the butt, i can make comparisons. if the tapers of these three rods should be identical, then we would have a good chance of having an answer.

my problem in accessing the tapers of these rods is that as was said about chris ethredge, he has to get (stewed) before he can (measure) and then any body can do a better job. but i am trying to measure without doing damage.

highest regards, jim w

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/06/10 11:49

I think it's right. There are a few 3 digit ones out there as well, IIRC.

Plus there are the two rods marked "8" - One a Mahogany, likely 2 ferrule sizes up from the 7 1/2' Dirigo. One blued, one bright. One swelled butt, one not. And likely built 10 years apart. ??

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/06/10 12:00

short tip,

thanks again. yes, that does NOT appear to be a double strike "2". so the search goes on

do the two rods marked "8" have intermediate wraps, and what are the colors of the silks, and could you describe the "signature" wraps?

highest regards, jim w

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