intervals of intermediate wrappings on FET

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/08/10 11:37

hello blacknosedace,

this is very good information, indeed.

you have one more rod wrapped with black silks (not considering rods having black tipping). that will make it three that i can remember having noted. i surmise that the black wraps were used on early rods. perhaps more black wraps will surface as this investigation continues.

i will check my nine foot rod marked "9" and report the ferrule size.

many thanks,

highest regards, jim w

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/08/10 11:48

i have been considering another factor in deciphering the meaning(s) of the stamps on the butt caps. blacknosedace reports four rings around the "6 with a dot) and three rings around the numbers on his other rods. some rods have two rings. could it be that a rod stamped with a number inside two rings carries a different meaning or additional meaning than a rod stamped with a number inside three or four rings?

more logs on the fire.

regards, jim w

StewartCastle · Post by **StewartCastle** » 01/08/10 12:54

Paul and others,
I am most interested in the Thomas Rod company and have been doing a bit of research as to this topic. I have some 20 F.E. Thomas pre-1930 rods, some bait and salmon, and have looked into the signature issue. From the Ed Houston interview (employee from 1920 to 1958 and Leon's daughter Suzanne) I have confirmation that the rods were out-soursed to local women (starting with F.E.'s wife Sarah and an Aunt Phoebe and Marion - Leon's wife) for wrapping. The signature wrapps were particular to these women within some general guidelines.
As to the stamped butt caps, all shapes (a diamond - 1936) or shapes, letters and/or numbers (1937 to 1958, the records kept by Steve Campbell of the Thomas Rod Company) are recorded as to the exact rod (1937 on) and for who it was made. Pre-1936 the one or two digit numeric stamp do not relate to a length or an employee who did some critical task in the construction. I have 4 Mahogany 8'6" and 9' rods all with a 3 stamp all with red 3-3-3 signature and some without intermediates. I have a 8' Mahogany and a 9'6" Dirigo with 8, a 9' Special and a 7'6" Bait Special with a 1 and a 7'6" Special and a 6' 3pc Bait Special with 22 to mention a few. My current thinking is that it could have to do with the action. From the catalogs we know all of the early 3 pc trout rods were available in many different actions. In the circa 1914, Exchange Street cataloge it was by length and weight with the Dirigo (his first rod) from 8' - 3 1\2 oz. to 10 1\2' - 8 oz. The Special was available " in all styles - any length and weight - and is made as light as 2 1\2 ozs. Favorite lengths are 9, 9 1\2 and 10 ft., weight respectively 5 to 5 1\2 ozs. for 9 ft. . . . " By the circa 1924 catalog Thomas requests that "When ordering fly rods be sure to state whether they are for Wet or Dry fly Fishing." He also mentions "...light, medium or stiff" actions. The Dirigo is still availablr from 8 to 10 1\2 ft but the catalog mentions Specials now from 8' and a new catagory, "The 'Thomas Special' Light Fly Rod from 7' 2 1\2 ozs. These designations are continued in the circa 1930 cataloge but by the 1934 catalog (with Leon in charge) the fly rods are broken down to "Wet Fly Rods with "Soft, Moderate or Powerful Action" and "Dry Fly Rods" with "Medium, Fast or Very Fast Action.
Maybe with 3 or 4 people measuring a bunch of pre-1936 rod tapers in say the 8 1\2' or 9' lengths we might get a notion if this is a possibility.
I hope this sheds some light.
Bob Stewart

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/08/10 13:05

hello StewartCastle,

norimasa and i have (special) rods of nine foot length marked "4" on the butt cap which are identical with the one exception of the type of reel seat. in addition, i have compared my eight foot (special) marked "4" to my nine foot rod. the wrap scheme and ferrules are identical, in fact all sections of the two rods are interchangable and the taper seems to be the same as best as i can measure.

do you know of any other rods marked with the number "4" (four) with which we might compare?

thanks in advance,

highest regards, jim w

North country brookie · Post by **North country brookie** » 01/08/10 14:58

Here are a few pictures of my FET

Just a thought - my rod has a "3" stamped on the butt cap. It also has groups of 3 signature windings grouped closely. Could there be a correlation to the 3 stamp and the 3 windings ? Do any of the rods stamped "4" have 4 signature windings grouped closely together ? Not that this really solves anything, but it would be an interesting twist. FWIW - my 8'-6" Special has what I consider a medium action. A little slower than my 8'-0" Heddon 1-3/4F.

WatercolorMan · Post by **WatercolorMan** » 01/08/10 16:12

StewartCastle, Welcome to the forum. Its nice to have someone so interested in FET's work and history. There are many of the forum members who own and use Thomas rods here. Nice to have you as part of the conversation.

BruceHandley · Post by **BruceHandley** » 01/09/10 06:04

Gentlemen, while I only have 3 or 4 FE Thomas rods and have nothing to add to your great discussion as to butt cap markings, etc. With the number of rods that have been mentioned, has anyone a rod marked with the Thomas sole agent? I have a 9 1/2', 3/2 rod marked as follows:
The "Thomas"
FE Thomas Maker
Frank E. Phillips
Boston
Sole Agent
So are there any other rods out there that are so marked and if so, anyone have an idea where it would fall time wise? I know that Michael Sinclair had one years ago and I know that a bait rod so marked was sold at Langs some years ago. The main reason I ask is that I've been told by one "expert" who shall remain nameless, that there is no such thing. And this was said while he was holding the rod in his hands.
If I've interrupted the orig. post I'm sorry but I thought perhaps one of you gentlemen might be able to help.
Bruce

cwfly · Post by **cwfly** » 01/09/10 07:14

Bruce,
It figures you would have something as unusual as that stashed away. In 1902 Phillips advertised he was at 9 Franklin Avenue, Boston selling (under his own name), "Fine Fishing tackle" thermometers, kodaks, picture frames, razors, strops, etc. I'll keep looking. I have never heard or seen of a rod marked that way.

Charlie

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/09/10 09:38

blacknosedace wrote:Here are few more to consider. I currently own four FET's, all from before 1937 I believe. Only two have with intermediate wraps for Norimasa They are:

1. A 9 foot Dirigo with full metal reel seat stamped with three circles and a 6 over a diamond. I believe the wraps were once honey colored but the aging varnish has turned them a cinnamon brown. The check wrap is 5/32". There is a 1/16" gap to the first signature wrap. There are seven signature wraps, each 1/32" wide and 1/32" inch apart. Then there is a 3/16" gap to the first intermediate. Intermediates are 1/16" wide and 1 1/4" apart. There are sixteen intermediates before the stripper and one between the stripper and ferrule. It is twenty-one inches from the winding check to the near stripper wrap. Ferrules are 17/64 and 12/64. This may be a special order rod because the reel seat and all the male ferrules are professionally engraved with what I take to be a previous owner's initials and one tip has different color wraps than the rest of the rod, although all this could have been done later.

2. A 9 foot Special with a cork reel seat. Butt cap stamped with three rings and a 9 over a diamond. The check wrap is 1/4" wide, black and white jasper tipped red. It is 3/32" to the first signature wrap. The signatures are three groups of black and white-red-black and white. They are fine sraps, only three or four turns. The wraps in each group are 1/32" apart, and the groups are spaced 3/16" apart. The first intermediate is 15/16" inch above the signatures. The intermediates are 1/16" wide and spaced 15/16" apart. There are eighteen of them between the signature wraps and the stripper and two betwen the stripper and the ferrule. Distance btween the winding check and the near stripper wrap is 20 1/4". The ferrules are 17/64 and 11/64.

Sorry they are not stamped 4, Norimasa. Hope this helps anyway.

3. A 9 foot Special with all metal reel seat stamped with four rings and a 6 over a dot. Red wraps tipped black. Ferrules are 18/64 and 13/64.

4. 8 1/2 foot Special with a cork reel seat. Butt cap stamped with three rings and a 6 over a diamond. The wraps are olive tipped orange. Ferrules are 16/64 and 11/64.

Take this last statement for what it's worth because: (1) This is personal opinion. (2) These rods are a pitfully small sampling. (3) I'm intrigued with -- and possibly influenced by -- Charlie's theory no. 2. In my hand the three rods marked with three rings and a diamond all feel slow -- smooth and full flexing. The rod marked with four rings and a dot is noticeably faster, a medium action.

I have pictures of these rods posted at fishinbanjosplace on the FET Thomas thread.

here is another log for the fire:

my eight and one/half foot special rod with "9"(nine) over "dot" under the open loop, inside three concentric rings on the butt cap, has, as best as i can measure, ferrules of 17/64 inch and 11/64 inch. i surmise the same as your rod with "9"(nine) over "diamond".

the rod is wrapped red tipped with yellow. i have little confidence that the wraps are original but may be faithful colors to the original.

highest regards, jim w

JoaoJorge · Post by **JoaoJorge** » 01/09/10 10:19

Hello my Friends,

I have one F E Thomas Rod - F. E. Thomas SPECIAL Bangor, ME - dated from June 1931, 10" 1/2 3 with two tips - serial number 31 - wich goes to restoration very soon, with metal reel seat patent dated from 1913. The wraps (original ones) are red and yellow, and after the real seat the wraps are as follow: 3 reds (space) 8 yellows (space) 2 yellows (space) 1 red. Red agate( first ring) and the top ring the same.

Best Regards,

João

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/09/10 10:27

BruceHandley wrote:Gentlemen, while I only have 3 or 4 FE Thomas rods and have nothing to add to your great discussion as to butt cap markings, etc. With the number of rods that have been mentioned, has anyone a rod marked with the Thomas sole agent? I have a 9 1/2', 3/2 rod marked as follows:
The "Thomas"
FE Thomas Maker
Frank E. Phillips
Boston
Sole Agent
So are there any other rods out there that are so marked and if so, anyone have an idea where it would fall time wise? I know that Michael Sinclair had one years ago and I know that a bait rod so marked was sold at Langs some years ago. The main reason I ask is that I've been told by one "expert" who shall remain nameless, that there is no such thing. And this was said while he was holding the rod in his hands.
If I've interrupted the orig. post I'm sorry but I thought perhaps one of you gentlemen might be able to help.
Bruce

hello Bruce,

i hope i speak for norimasa also when i say welcome to the discussion. can you provide the pertinent information on your rods for us?

highest regards, jim w

North country brookie · Post by **North country brookie** » 01/09/10 11:18

Joao,

Welcome. When you say "serial number 31", do you mean 31 is stamped on the butt cap, stamped somewhere else, is 31 inked somewhere ? Where is the 31 located ?

JoaoJorge · Post by **JoaoJorge** » 01/09/10 11:44

Hello my Friend,

Yes, the serial number 31, (looks like an LS - but no, it´s 31 ) it´s stamped at the end the reel seat

Pentalux · Post by **Pentalux** » 01/09/10 12:25

Great images Stuart - Thanks for sharing them.

I don't mean to cloud the thread with further speculation but after seeing Charlie's listing of rods, could it be that they represent taper bar numbers? as the (pre '37) smaller numbers seem to be on older rods and the relatively newer rods are a few digits higher which would be in keeping with the continued development of requests and improvements. A few years ago i had the opportunity to visit with a very well known maker in his shop and one of the (many) mind blowing things he showed me was an original Thomas taper bar (not positive but think it was made of wood) and on it were many various lines and notes for different rods and lengths - interestingly I remember one was marked for several length fly rods with different actions and a bait casting taper!? Looking back though it could also have been an old Leonard bar too...

For the data, i also know of an 8 1/2 ft Browntone stamped 35.

Great thread.

Rob

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/09/10 16:31

so, it is too early yet to claim to have deciphered the meaning of the numbers and symbols stamped on the butt caps. but if pentalux is correct and walt carpenter can verify that the taper bars are numbered, the premise that the marks refer to tapers will be greatly advanced.

also, Bob Stewart's very informative statement concerning the ladies who wrapped the rods will emdow f e thomas rods with greater status as objets d'art; and the wraps themselves will become works of "folk art". now, if only we had some way to determine which wraps were laid on by Sarah, Aunt Phoebe, and Marian; and the other ladies; an entirely new venue of collecting would become available.

f e thomas in MOMA?

regards, jim w.

cwfly · Post by **cwfly** » 01/10/10 04:58

Rob,

Your thought about taper bars could, of course, lead to an answer if the bar(s) were marked with notes and the numbers we are looking for.

Charlie

Pentalux · Post by **Pentalux** » 01/10/10 06:27

Charlie,

Do you have or know anyone who might have a copy of a Leon era ledger page? If symbols and letters represent years, with the number stamp corresponding to the rod built, I would think part of the data on the sheet would be a taper bar number too (if our theory is correct) - Thoughts?

As further argumentative speculation your list seems to support the theory more than disprove it, as it does not show wispy 7 or even 8 ft rods with the same number as 9 ft ones. The 0 shows so far the 6' 8" and a 7 ft - most of the others are same length or 8 1/2 and a 9 - makes sense to me as a builder too as the distance between the cuts for a three piece rod is not much and could easily see with a slight shift the shorter being perhaps standard and the longer more wet action... speculation for sure but will find out what I can next time i have the chance with the Master.

Did E.F Thomas ever make an 8' 4" 3/2 rod?

Rob

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/10/10 07:12

Rob, excellent stuff indeed. It's been my impression that many Thomas rods have a "dent" in the taper near the ferrules, would this still jibe with your theory? Does it then stand to reason that if we measure a 7 1/2' rod and a 9 ft rod which both have (for example) an "8" stamped on them, the tapers will line up at some point? I'm not a rodmaker so forgive me if I'm ignorant.

I hope to inspect a rod on Tuesday which is an early 8'3" Dirigo, said to be the original length. I'll let you know what I find.

Bob, thanks for weighing in, beautiful photos, I'll call you this week.

PK

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/10/10 07:34

Short Tip,

my eight foot and nine foot specials, both marked "4"(four) on the butt cap, appear to line up just below the mid-to-butt ferrule. i am not at all certain where or if any other cuts may be made in the nine foot taper to produce the eight foot shaft. further measurements will be needed.

highest regards, jim w

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/11/10 08:10

hello northcountrybrookies,

the three rods marked "4" on the butt cap (two at nine feet and one at eight feet) have identical "signature" or decorative wraps of: Y R Y - Y R Y - Y R Y - it would be really interesting if the three rods were to have been wrapped by the same lady.

highest regards, jim w