intervals of intermediate wrappings on FET

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/12/10 13:34

I met a friend today and looked over a few very early FE rods. Here's a brief overview to get you thinking......

8'3" 3/2 Dirigo, appears VERY early with all metal seat, long ferrules in a slightly different style than the Dirigos of a few years later, they are waisted like an early Payne, the male slides are a separate piece rather than the drawn shoulder ferrules of a few years later. Makers stamp is on seat near grip rather than on buttcap. NO number on buttcap, just 3 concentric rings.

9 1/2' 3/2 Dirigo, all metal reelseat, Makers stamp on buttcap, grip made up of 1/8" rings, lightly swelled butt, easy action for a 6 wt, #2 stamped on buttcap.

8 1/2' Special, all cork seat, unswelled butt, agate stripper, #7 stamped on buttcap.

I got a few quick pictures, I'll try to get them up tomorrow.

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/12/10 15:57

hello short tip,

that is good information.

i believe the 8 1/2 foot special marked "7" will fill the card for all numbers from "0" to "9" plus "diamond" and "triangle" for rods having intermediate wraps.

thanks,

highest regards, jim w

Pentalux · Post by **Pentalux** » 01/15/10 05:37

Well I spoke with Walt and the taper rods were/are Thomas and they are numbered but not in a way that corresponds to the stamping on the caps. He noted too that sometime around '36 they were a serial number with the (as mentioned here earlier in thread) a diamond, a half diamond, the dot, he said they used an FE one year, and then the number for the rod made. For the earlier rods he felt that (after I kinda prodded for a hypothesis as he first said he really had no idea but) they were probably for some form of control. Possibly a serial number for the accountant or possibly tax accountancy. Bottom line - still unknown.
Rob

cwfly · Post by **cwfly** » 01/15/10 06:51

Rob,
Thanks for the update. I enjoy this mystery of looking for the answer to what appears to be a fairly simple issue.
Charlie

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/16/10 12:20

Thanks Rob! That's very helpful even if it doesn't solve the mystery......

I'm pulling this data together and trying to figure it out. Who knows whether we will or not, but it's fun to try.

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/21/10 11:40

dear all,

always willing to stick my neck out, and given the meager data base from which to draw any conclusions, my opinion is as follows.

the numbers and symbols stamped into the butt caps of f e thomas rods prior to 1937/38 will refer to a "model number" and a TAPER. this marking may also include a reference to the ferrule size/s. we have learned that the "signature" wraps were placed on the rods at the discretion of the wrapping ladies "within certain guidelines".

additionally, perhaps coincidentally, the three rods numbered "2 - 2" are all eight feet in length, two of them at least are marked "dirigo". two of them were described by short tip and one by cwfly. comparison of their tapers could be most helpful.

that is my conclusion at this time; subject, of course, to additional data/evidence.

"ready on the right, ready on the left, all ready on the firing line! with ball ammunition, lock and load!"

respectfully, jim winfree

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/21/10 13:35

At the risk of taking a shelling, I'm going to respectfully disagree. (duck!)

Based on a very rough analysis of the numbers and the rods I have access to, I am pretty sure the numbers are not:
A model #
A ferrule size #
An indicator of taper

On this last point, I haven't had time to mike many rods, so it's conjecture based on my knowledge of the rods I've seen or have. But I'm reasonably certain that many of them won't have tapers that line up on any point of the rods.

I've tried to change my thinking a bit and put myself in F.E.'s shoes, those of a businessman interested in profit and quality. I can't see any way the numbers were meant to mean anything to the customers. So they were for internal use. So my current thinking involves how these numbers were helpful to the company. Charlie suggested that they may have been a way to track retailer orders, that's certainly a possibillity. And I still think they MIGHT be a "final quality check" stamp, by an employee with his own stamp. The "number of numbers" certainly fits either one of these conjectures. As far as I'm aware, no living person was there during that period so we may never know for sure.

cwfly · Post by **cwfly** » 01/22/10 05:55

Short Tip,

You will get no disagreement from me. The choices you suggest seem logical and I assume the original reason for the numbers was the same.

Charlie

Stomias · Post by **Stomias** » 01/22/10 07:23

This is the stamp on my 8.5' special. Mr. Campbell indicated 1937. I found the butt and mid at a flea market for $5 and had Jeff Fultz build a tip and restore the existing sections. A beautiful job and rod.

Before shot......

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/24/10 18:57

hello Stomias,

that is a very good looking rod and a very good job of saving it from discorporation by mr. fultz. do you happen to know how he determined the taper of the tip in order to craft a new one? the numbers at the taper stations would be very helpful, as would be the sizes of the ferrules.

thanks for contributing.

highest regards, jim winfree

limestoner · Post by **limestoner** » 01/24/10 20:40

I may be wrong, but I believe that our dear departed friend Marty Keane was in posession of the original Thomas ledgers .....

I also have a 9' Special, with the solitary diamond stamp in the buttcap. I spoke with Marty about the provenance of the diamond stamp a number of years ago; he said that there was no record of a diamond stamp in the ledgers, and surmised the rod was likely from the Fred Thomas era.

Limestoner

Stomias · Post by **Stomias** » 01/25/10 04:12

Jim,

Not sure how Jeff got the tapers. He does post here occasionally, maybe he will chime in.

Jim

stoneflyer · Post by **stoneflyer** » 01/26/10 09:59

Here is an 8 foot 3/2 FET special. Ferrule sizes are 16/64 and 10/64. There are 15 intermediate wraps between the signature wrap and stripping guide. The butt has a total of 17 intermediates, 29 on the mid and 43 on the tip. It has a red agate stripping guide and smokey grey tip agates. There is also 9 English twist snakes. The cane color is even and shows no signs of flaming. It is however not blond leading me to think that it might be ammonia toned or deeply patina-ed via the varnish. Given the tips, I think this rod is on the older side of the FET inventory.
Any ideas on a rough date?

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/26/10 12:32

hello stoneflyer,

thanks for participating. what an interesting hookkeeper/check! ditto the "signature wraps! what is the distance from the hookkeeper to the stripping guide? i surmise that could be a mahogany or a browntone rod. i guess artificed 1915 + - 5 years. others may help more.

actually, a great rod!

highest regards, jim winfree

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/26/10 12:37

Hi Stoneflyer,

Awesome rod, very beautiful. The color is from varnish patina. I'd put your rod somewhere in the 1920 timeframe, give or take a few years. The only other rods with a "0" in our meager database are 6'8" and 7' 2 piece rods.

stoneflyer · Post by **stoneflyer** » 01/26/10 16:52

Hi Jim,the distance between the hook keeper and stripper is 17.5" The ferrule fit is still amongst the best I own although the varnish is starting to break down and the stripper wraps are popping. The other tip is down about 1.5 inches. Along with EW Edwards, I think FET had some of the prettiest full intermediate rods ever produced. Is there any correlation between the pronounced swell of many FETs and the time that they were made? Or maybe ferrules could be a feature with which to date a sample?Adam

Seabowisha Salmo T · Post by **Seabowisha Salmo T** » 01/26/10 18:27

thanks adam,

   the information is appreciated. at the very least, if the rod were mine, i would have the deteriorating wraps "overwrapped" to protect them. others, especially rodmakers or restorers may have additional suggestions to conserve the wraps. i consider the wraps on the f e thomas rods to be works of primitive art, and, yes e. w. made rods with beautiful wraps. do you still fish the rod?   my eight foot rod without intermediates is a wonderful caster with a great heart.

   i suspect there is a correlation between the swelled butts and a singularity, prior to the appearance of swelled butts and after. but do not think there are sufficient examples (known to me) to make such a determination.

   ferrule sizes might assist in deciphering the numbers/symbols stamped on the butt caps of rods made before 1938, other than that, very early rods have some different ferrules. i do not want to place much faith in ferrule analysis simply because it could be possible that ferrule sizes on different (dare i say?) "models" were an evolutionary feature.

highest regards, jim

stoneflyer · Post by **stoneflyer** » 01/27/10 06:13

Jim,this was the first bamboo rod I purchased about 3 1/2 years ago. I found it on EB*$ for $350. Shortly after it arrived I did some lawn casting with it and found it to be a wonderful smooth medium-medium slow action. After that initial use I noticed the stripper wraps unravelling so I haven't cast it since. My intention was to refinish it myself when I was ready but I have started making my own bamboo rods (3) and any refinishing projects have been put on the back burner. The beautiful smell of OLD tung emanating from the FET tube every time I open it is still associated with the first time I held a bamboo rod. I would hate to lose that if I re-varnished the rod...

Short Tip · Post by **Short Tip** » 01/27/10 06:37

Swelled butts appear on the earliest Thomas rods, it would appear that Fred used them from the beginning, though not on all rods. As far as ferrules go, they're fairly consistent through the years except for the earliest models, which used ferrules presumably made by Varney. Dirigos have drawn male ferrules and Specials use 3 piece male ferrules. All the female ferrules appear fairly uniform.

thomas · Post by **thomas** » 01/28/10 18:45

I have documentation that indicates that the diamond stamp was used in 1936.
Steve Campbell