f e thomas single no. rod current --- measuring no. 4 rods

[Caneghost]

Thomas rods have always been a major interest of his. He does do a terrific job in restorations!

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

Thomas rods have always been a major interest of his. He does do a terrific job in restorations!

when i was in that country at deer camp up past the methodist campground every time i stopped by his shop the dreaded gone fishing sign was on the door.
regards . . .

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

Sea Salmo--

A diamond indent punch with no number indicates the rod was completed in 1936.

hello, headwaters, . . it turns out that the punch is a triangle after all unless this is not the same rod (a streamer). i will look further. regards, jim w

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

number length model reel handle stripper ferrule
on butt number seat to butt size

1 ... 9 '0" ... spl ... 3 7/32 ... 4 13/16. 29 3/4 ... 0.25 ...0.16
4 ... 8' 0" ... spl ... 3 5/16 ... 5 5/8 ... 27 1/4 ... 0.25
4 ... 9' 0" ... dir ... 3 5/8..... 5 3/8 ... 31 ... ... 0.26
4 ... 9' 0" ... spl ... 3 3/8.... 5 5/8 ... 30 1/2 ... 0.25

5 ... 10' 0" .. spl ... 3 3/4 .... 6 3/8 ... 24 ... ... 0.28
5 ... 10' 0' .. spl ... 3 3/4 .... 5 3/4 ... 24 ... ... 0.28

6 or 9 8' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 3/4 29 1/2 0.27
6 or 9 9' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 1/2 24 1/4 0.31
6 or 9 9' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 1/2

0 9 '0" spl 3 1/2 6 24 1/4 0.30
0 9' 6" spl 3 1/2 5 24 1/4 0.30

. . . . . .this list will be expanded to accomodate new information.
i cannot speak for other makers, but i can definitively speak for f e thomas special rods that thomas modified montague all metal reel seats in 1/8 inch increments from 3 5/16 to 4 1/4 inches (at least, maybe more) in overall length. most weight in a fly rod is in the butt. most weight in butt is in the reel seat and handle. every 1/8 inch increases or reduces weight of the butt. reel seat to some degree dictates the longest reel foot and vaguely heaviest reel which can be conveniently mounted on a specific rod. f e thomas marked MOST! of his all metal reel seats with a distinctive single number. this, therefore, is a bookkeeping-inventory number to assist in putting the modified all metal reel seat in the correct inventory bin-attributed to "bob or walt". all cork and wood insert reel seats have the corresponding number stamped on the buttcap to designate the overall seat length for a particular section taken from a 48 inch? bamboo blank. this provides a number of "different' actions. in the oncoming days, you will see a pattern developing concerning the relationship between reel seat, handle, and cut rod sections from blanks. happy reading,
"when you find yourself in this realm of unlimited possibility be careful of what you say or do. the right decisions might help you find your way out sometimes with greater happiness or wealth. the wrong decisions often lead to madness or death, or an eternity trapped in this dimension. tread warily past the sign post ahead which says you have entered, the twilight zone"(of thomas and edwards).
the first addition to the list: a no. 1, very early.
butt: 8 in fwd 0.37 - .37 - .36 +5 " 0.34 -.34 .34 +5" 0.32 032 .32 +5" 0.31 .31 .32 +5 0.31 .31 .32 +5 0.30 .31 .31 +5 0.28 .28 .290 +5 0.27 .27 .26
mid:7/8 in fwd 0.27 .27 .27 +2 1/2" 0.26 .26 .26 +5 0.25 .25 .25 +5 0.25 .25 .24 +5 0,24 .24 .25 +5 0.23 .23 .23 +5 0.20 .20 .20 +5 .019 .19 .19
tip: 1 3/4 in fwd 0.17 .17 .17 +5 0.16 .16 .16 +5 0.13 .13 .13 +5 .012 .12 .12 +5 0.11 .11 .11 +5 0.10 .10 .10 +5 0.08 .08 .08 +5 0.06 .06 .06 9tiptop = wrap = 7/8 inch
images to follow someday. micrometer readings are over thin varnish. regards, jim w

[Stomias]

Was told this Special was 1937? https://photos.app.goo.gl/krLASHprCoCg18dA9

[headwaters]

Yep!

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

Was told this Special was 1937? https://photos.app.goo.gl/krLASHprCoCg18dA9

hello, stomias; . i believe you were told correctly. the thomas ledger notes the triangle denotes 1937 year of assembly. however, just to muddy the water further, if that is possible, i have in my possession a nine foot streamer rod with the special elongated streamer buttcap marked with triangle, and two concentric (large) rings - no number(s). a j campbell had investigation of two number rod on his to do list but i was not convinced there were enough two number rods currently existent and known to make up a significant data base. i am still amazed that so many individuals are concerned with identifying the year of construction. era of construction, yes, but what difference could it possibly make whether the rod was artificed in 1937 or 19xx??? remember thomas rods have been known to languish on the factory shelves for at least four years before being sold . so, the investigations continue . . . all available correct unrestored rods will be examined, no altered rods will be considered. regards, jim w

[thomasrodco]

According to the Stewart & Girard FET book, the square punch indent with numerals on the end of the butt cap indicates that the rod was completed in 1939. So, the rod would have been either the 6th or 9th rod of 695 made that year. For comparison, both of my 1939 rods have the square indent above the number.

Not having seen the actual stamp on this rod, it would be hard to say what year this rod is, but I can tell you that in the 1939 ledger, #Square-6 is listed as a 9' Special, and #Square-9 is a 5' Baitcaster. I suspect this rod in question in not a 1939 rod.
Hope this helps.
Steve

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

well, 30,000 looks, wow, i should throw a party. i am assured norimasa would have never have guessed that a rather quiet request for information to help him place a year of crafting of early f e thomas rods (intervals of intermediates) would have been so interesting to so many persons. the study of the meaning of the number question is an interesting byproduct of his inquisitiveness. i am constantly amazed by the search by some for the year and if possible day of making of a particular fishing rod. to me other criteria are of more importance, but, to each his own. i am currently measuring the rods i have in my possession and hope to be able to accompany the data with images of each rod. i may complete the project before the treasure of oak island is uncovered. . .regards, jim w .

hello, tuna -gasp; . considering steve's information, i suspect a careful examination of the stamp will indicate that it is a round dot (period). or, . . . a poor tired worker mumbled "da!!, i used the wrong stamp!!! well, noboby will care except poor old tunabreath in 2020; and i'm goin' fishin'.
regards jim w

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

number length model reel handle stripper ferrule
on butt number seat to butt size

4 ... 8' 0" ... spl ... 3 5/16 ... 5 5/8 ... 27 1/4 ... 0.25
4 ... 9' 0" ... dir ... 3 5/8..... 5 3/8 ... 31 ... ... 0.26
4 ... 9' 0" ... spl ... 3 3/8.... 5 5/8 ... 30 1/2 ... 0.25

5 ... 10' 0" .. spl ... 3 3/4 .... 6 3/8 ... 24 ... ... 0.28
5 ... 10' 0' .. spl ... 3 3/4 .... 5 3/4 ... 24 ... ... 0.28

6 or 9 8' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 3/4 29 1/2 0.27
6 or 9 9' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 1/2 24 1/4 0.31
6 or 9 9' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 1/2

0 9 '0" spl 3 1/2 6 24 1/4 0.30
0 9' 6" spl 3 1/2 5 24 1/4 0.30

diamond 9' 0" spl 3 1/2 5 3/4 30. . . . . .this list will be expanded to accomodate new information.
i cannot speak for other makers, but i can definitively soeak for f e thomas special rods that thomas modified montague all metal reel seats in 1/8 inch increments from 3 5/16 to 4 1/4 inches (at least, maybe more) in overall length. most weight in a fly rod is in the butt. most weight in butt is in the reel seat and handle. every 1/8 inch increases or reduces weight of the butt. reel seat to some degree dictates the longest reel foot and vaguely heaviest reel which can be conveniently mounted on a specific rod. f e thomas marked MOST! of his all metal reel seats with a distinctive single number. this, therefore, is a bookkeeping-inventory number to assist in putting the modified all metal reel seat in the correct inventory bin-attributed to "bob or walt". all cork and wood insert reel seats have the corresponding number stamped on the buttcap to designate the overall seat length for a particular section taken from a 48 inch? bamboo blank. this provides a number of "different' actions. in the oncoming days, you will see a pattern developing concerning the relationship between reel seat, handle, and cut rod sections from blanks. happy reading, regards, jim w

no. "1" . . 9 ft 6 in. - v g condition. seat - 4 1/4", handle 4 11/16 (heavy 11/16 - almost 3/4") ferrules - 0.260, 0.172

butt: up 9"- .383 .372 .382 + 5" -.363 .363 .361 + .340 .340 344 + .328 .330 .330 + .314 .315 .317 + .295 .297 .301 + .281 do
mid: up 2"-.275 .276 .276 + .267 .268 .269 + .249 .252 .252 + .247 .247 .248 + .235 .237 .238 + .210 .212 .212 +.202 .202 .205
tip: up 1 3/4" - .164 .166 .166 + .146 .147 .148 + .139 .141 .142 + .129 .130 .131 + .103 .105 .105 + 0.086 do + 0.065 ditto
these micrometers very unforgiving on original mahogany finish. regards, jim w
dirigo nine feet, no number, two rings on butt. very light construction, heavy overcoat of varnish.
butt: up 9" - .359 +4" - .338 +5" - .326 +do - .306 +do - .308 +do - .299 -ferrule = 2 1/2 inch
mid: up 2 1/8" - .259 - 2 1/4 - .256 +5" - .250 +do - .251 +do - .234 +do - .217 +do - .206 +do - .185 - ferrule 1 7/8"
-tip: up 1 5/8" - .165 - 3 1/8 - .166 +5" - .165 +do - .145 +do - .136 +do - .128 +do - .116 +do - .101 - tiptop 13/16

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

number length model reel handle stripper ferrule
on butt number seat to butt size

4 ... 8' 0" ... spl ... 3 5/16 ... 5 5/8 ... 27 1/4 ... 0.25
4 ... 9' 0" ... dir ... 3 5/8..... 5 3/8 ... 31 ... ... 0.26
4 ... 9' 0" ... spl ... 3 3/8.... 5 5/8 ... 30 1/2 ... 0.25

5 ... 10' 0" .. spl ... 3 3/4 .... 6 3/8 ... 24 ... ... 0.28
5 ... 10' 0' .. spl ... 3 3/4 .... 5 3/4 ... 24 ... ... 0.28

6 or 9 8' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 3/4 29 1/2 0.27
6 or 9 9' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 1/2 24 1/4 0.31
6 or 9 9' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 1/2

0 9 '0" spl 3 1/2 6 24 1/4 0.30
0 9' 6" spl 3 1/2 5 24 1/4 0.30

diamond 9' 0" spl 3 1/2 5 3/4 30. . . . . .this list will be expanded to accomodate new information.
i cannot speak for other makers, but i can definitively soeak for f e thomas special rods that thomas modified montague all metal reel seats in 1/8 inch increments from 3 5/16 to 4 1/4 inches (at least, maybe more) in overall length. most weight in a fly rod is in the butt. most weight in butt is in the reel seat and handle. every 1/8 inch increases or reduces weight of the butt. reel seat to some degree dictates the longest reel foot and vaguely heaviest reel which can be conveniently mounted on a specific rod. f e thomas marked MOST! of his all metal reel seats with a distinctive single number. this, therefore, is a bookkeeping-inventory number to assist in putting the modified all metal reel seat in the correct inventory bin-attributed to "bob or walt". all cork and wood insert reel seats have the corresponding number stamped on the buttcap to designate the overall seat length for a particular section taken from a 48 inch? bamboo blank. this provides a number of "different' actions. in the oncoming days, you will see a pattern developing concerning the relationship between reel seat, handle, and cut rod sections from blanks. happy reading, regards, jim w

no. "1" . . 9 ft 6 in. - v g condition. seat - 4 1/4", handle 4 11/16 (heavy 11/16 - almost 3/4") ferrules - 0.260, 0.172

butt: up 9"- .383 .372 .382 + 5" -.363 .363 .361 + .340 .340 344 + .328 .330 .330 + .314 .315 .317 + .295 .297 .301 + .281 do
mid: up 2"-.275 .276 .276 + .267 .268 .269 + .249 .252 .252 + .247 .247 .248 + .235 .237 .238 + .210 .212 .212 +.202 .202 .205
tip: up 1 3/4" - .164 .166 .166 + .146 .147 .148 + .139 .141 .142 + .129 .130 .131 + .103 .105 .105 + 0.086 do + 0.065 ditto
these micrometers very unforgiving on original mahogany finish. regards, jim w
dirigo nine feet, no number, two rings on butt. very light construction, heavy overcoat of varnish.
butt: up 9" - .359 +4" - .338 +5" - .326 +do - .306 +do - .308 +do - .299 -ferrule = 2 1/2 inch
mid: up 2 1/8" - .259 - 2 1/4 - .256 +5" - .250 +do - .251 +do - .234 +do - .217 +do - .206 +do - .185 - ferrule 1 7/8"
-tip: up 1 5/8" - .165 - 3 1/8 - .166 +5" - .165 +do - .145 +do - .136 +do - .128 +do - .116 +do - .101 - tiptop 13/16

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

[quote="Seabowisha Salmo T" post_id=671667 time=1438880103 user_





. . . . . .this list will be expanded to accommodate new information.
i cannot speak for other makers, but i can definitively soeak for f e thomas special rods that thomas modified montague all metal reel seats in 1/8 inch increments from 3 5/16 to 4 1/4 inches (at least, maybe more) in overall length. most weight in a fly rod is in the butt. most weight in butt is in the reel seat and handle. every 1/8 inch increases or reduces weight of the butt. reel seat to some degree dictates the longest reel foot and vaguely heaviest reel which can be conveniently mounted on a specific rod. f e thomas marked MOST! of his all metal reel seats with a distinctive single number. this, therefore, is a bookkeeping-inventory number to assist in putting the modified all metal reel seat in the correct inventory bin-attributed to "bob or walt". all cork and wood insert reel seats have the corresponding number stamped on the buttcap to designate the overall seat length for a particular section taken from a 48 inch? bamboo blank. this provides a number of "different' actions. in the oncoming days, you will see a pattern developing concerning the relationship between reel seat, handle, and cut rod sections from blanks. happy reading, regards, jim w

no. "1" . . 9 ft 6 in. - v g condition. seat - 4 1/4", handle 4 11/16 (heavy 11/16 - almost 3/4") ferrules - 0.260, 0.172

butt: up 9"- .383 .372 .382 + 5" -.363 .363 .361 + .340 .340 344 + .328 .330 .330 + .314 .315 .317 + .295 .297 .301 + .281 do
mid: up 2"-.275 .276 .276 + .267 .268 .269 + .249 .252 .252 + .247 .247 .248 + .235 .237 .238 + .210 .212 .212 +.202 .202 .205
tip: up 1 3/4" - .164 .166 .166 + .146 .147 .148 + .139 .141 .142 + .129 .130 .131 + .103 .105 .105 + 0.086 do + 0.065 ditto
these micrometers very unforgiving on original mahogany finish. regards, jim w
dirigo nine feet, no number, two rings on butt. very light construction, heavy overcoat of varnish.
butt: up 9" - .359 +4" - .338 +5" - .326 +do - .306 +do - .308 +do - .299 -ferrule = 2 1/2 inch
mid: up 2 1/8" - .259 - 2 1/4 - .256 +5" - .250 +do - .251 +do - .234 +do - .217 +do - .206 +do - .185 - ferrule 1 7/8"
-tip: up 1 5/8" - .165 - 3 1/8 - .166 +5" - .165 +do - .145 +do - .136 +do - .128 +do - .116 +do - .101 - tiptop 13/16
weighs 4 3-8 ounces. buttcap with standard f e t stamp - dirigo - with light wood insert. action not soft.





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number length model reel handle stripper ferrule
on butt number seat to butt size

4 ... 8' 0" ... spl ... 3 5/16 ... 5 5/8 ... 27 1/4 ... 0.25
4 ... 9' 0" ... dir ... 3 5/8..... 5 3/8 ... 31 ... ... 0.26
4 ... 9' 0" ... spl ... 3 3/8.... 5 5/8 ... 30 1/2 ... 0.25

5 ... 10' 0" .. spl ... 3 3/4 .... 6 3/8 ... 24 ... ... 0.28
5 ... 10' 0' .. spl ... 3 3/4 .... 5 3/4 ... 24 ... ... 0.28

6 or 9 8' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 3/4 29 1/2 0.27
6 or 9 9' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 1/2 24 1/4 0.31
6 or 9 9' 6" spl 3 5/8 6 1/2

0 9 '0" spl 3 1/2 6 24 1/4 0.30
0 9' 6" spl 3 1/2 5 24 1/4 0.30

diamond 9' 0" spl 3 1/2 5 3/4 30. . . . . .this list will be expanded to accomodate new information.
i cannot speak for other makers, but i can definitively soeak for f e thomas special rods that thomas modified montague all metal reel seats in 1/8 inch increments from 3 5/16 to 4 1/4 inches (at least, maybe more) in overall length. most weight in a fly rod is in the butt. most weight in butt is in the reel seat and handle. every 1/8 inch increases or reduces weight of the butt. reel seat to some degree dictates the longest reel foot and vaguely heaviest reel which can be conveniently mounted on a specific rod. f e thomas marked MOST! of his all metal reel seats with a distinctive single number. this, therefore, is a bookkeeping-inventory number to assist in putting the modified all metal reel seat in the correct inventory bin-attributed to "bob or walt". all cork and wood insert reel seats have the corresponding number stamped on the buttcap to designate the overall seat length for a particular section taken from a 48 inch? bamboo blank. this provides a number of "different' actions. in the oncoming days, you will see a pattern developing concerning the relationship between reel seat, handle, and cut rod sections from blanks. happy reading, regards, jim w

no. "1" . . 9 ft 6 in. - v g condition. seat - 4 1/4", handle 4 11/16 (heavy 11/16 - almost 3/4") ferrules - 0.260, 0.172

butt: up 9"- .383 .372 .382 + 5" -.363 .363 .361 + .340 .340 344 + .328 .330 .330 + .314 .315 .317 + .295 .297 .301 + .281 do
mid: up 2"-.275 .276 .276 + .267 .268 .269 + .249 .252 .252 + .247 .247 .248 + .235 .237 .238 + .210 .212 .212 +.202 .202 .205
tip: up 1 3/4" - .164 .166 .166 + .146 .147 .148 + .139 .141 .142 + .129 .130 .131 + .103 .105 .105 + 0.086 do + 0.065 ditto
these micrometers very unforgiving on original mahogany finish. regards, jim w
dirigo nine feet, no number, two rings on butt. very light construction, heavy overcoat of varnish.
butt: up 9" - .359 +4" - .338 +5" - .326 +do - .306 +do - .308 +do - .299 -ferrule = 2 1/2 inch
mid: up 2 1/8" - .259 - 2 1/4 - .256 +5" - .250 +do - .251 +do - .234 +do - .217 +do - .206 +do - .185 - ferrule 1 7/8"
-tip: up 1 5/8" - .165 - 3 1/8 - .166 +5" - .165 +do - .145 +do - .136 +do - .128 +do - .116 +do - .101 - tiptop 13/16
weight 4 3-8 ounces on my balance. buttcap and light wood insert reelseat. not a soft action rod.

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

hello, all; too windy and stormy to fish, i am blessed with the only rainstorm in the u s today. the eyes are not good at this time so measurements may have to wait till the doctor visit. tight lines, regards, bro (typing by touch)

[solo8232000]

For what it's worth..My #4 Thomas Special:Reel Seat 3 1/2", Reel seat and cork handle (to end of winding check) 9 1/8"; down sliding reel seat; o.d. @winding check (over silk winding).391"; o.d. butt ferrule (over silk winding).279"; length from end of butt to stripper guide 30 3/8"; i.d. of butt ferrule .240"; i.d of mid section ferrule .170"..Hope this helps!

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

For what it's worth..My #4 Thomas Special:

hello, nathan, you have made my otherwise rainy day!m i would really appreciate the information on your no.4 (my favorite number). you don't live too far from harry, i betcha he could mike your rod safely to determine the taper if you do not want to risk the excellent finish. regards, jim w

[solo8232000]

I miked the rod at the locations given in the original post. I did not realize you want a complete catalog of the rod. I will email Harry and see what we can work out. He lives about 150 miles from me....some of the windings make it impossible to get a measure right at the ferrule or winding check..So I noted the measurement with the caveat that the winding diameter is included..
nathan

[solo8232000]

Steve Campbell told me this rod was pre-1937 maybe even 1920s. I was also told by some folks here, after the publishing of the latest book of Thomas rod markings that the rod was made in 1914..If that is inded the case this rods was from the highest grade rods made by Thomas at the time..It would also have been made the same year as the Thomas rods were featured at the worlds fair. I am not saying that this particular rod was displayed at the Worlds Fair. I know that Mr. Thomas and his son Leon would have likely worked on this rod as well as Mrs. Thomas. Sure gives a special appreciation is the date is correct!!

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

Steve Campbell told me this rod was pre-1937 maybe even 1920s. I was also told by some folks here, after the publishing of the latest book of Thomas rod markings that the rod was made in 1914..If that is inded the case this rods was from the highest grade rods made by Thomas at the time..It would also have been made the same year as the Thomas rods were featured at the worlds fair. I am not saying that this particular rod was displayed at the Worlds Fair. I know that Mr. Thomas and his son Leon would have likely worked on this rod as well as Mrs. Thomas. Sure gives a special appreciation is the date is correct!!

it may be possible to verify that build date with enough data from other no. 4's of known build time. steve campbell also said the no.2 and no. 4 definitely were model numbers. information was taken from catalogs which he possesses. yes, the special was the highest grade the browntone is merely a type of special. wow! 150 miles to harry. louisiana is a big, long state. thanks for responding again,
regards, jim w

[thomasrodco]

Hi Jim, I didn't say the butt stamps were "definitely" model numbers, but they definitely did list model numbers in some of the catalogs, and in my opinion, I do think that is more likely what the pre-'37 rod numbers represent. The thing is, ALL the "facts" that have been published about the early rod are just opinions, since there are no concrete facts, since virtually no records were kept prior to 1937. This ironclad numbering system was just a good guess as to what the numbers mean, and although everyone now thinks that we now know all the pre-37 year stamps, it just makes no sense to me that the rods made in 1914, for example, would only have a "4" stamped on them, and not an "14".
I mean, it would have literally have taken seconds to stamp the complete last two digits of the year if that were indeed the facts.. A "4" to me would have made sense on a rod made in '04, but in '14?
I personally don't think we will ever know for sure, but based on the fact that they did indeed use model numbers on the rods in the catalogs, that there is a much better chance the pre-37 stampings are something other than a year designation..

[solo8232000]

"I know that Mr. Thomas and his son Leon would have likely worked on this rod as well as Mrs. Thomas."..Now it seems I know little to nothing!!..except that This beautiful F. E. Thomas Special is a very delicate rod..in great condition (thank you. Steve!!)..and I am blessed to care for this master's work and enjoy the results of their work!!


Nathan