f e thomas single no. rod current --- measuring no. 4 rods

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

norimasa may have found an important link to deciphering the numbers on f e thomas rod butt caps.  if members would be kind enough to post descriptions (images would be great) of their early rods it would be greatly appreciated!

thanks in advance.

regards, jim winfree

in addition to the nine foot rod; i have a much later (twenty to thirty years later) eight foot rod with yellow-red-yellow signature wraps, guides and ferrules wrapped yellow with red tipping as are norimasa's and my own, marked "4" on the butt cap.  reel seat is all metal, tiny wedding band.

   i have two rods marked "9", one rod marked "5" and forum members have listed six rods marked "8".  comparison of tapers/ferrule sizes of these rods may be additionally helpful.

anyone having single number or two number rods are requested to provide reel seat length, reel seat and cork handle length, type of reel seat, o.d. of shaft at winding check and below ferrule, ferrule sizes, length from end of butt to stripper, and presence of intermediate wraps.      

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

inquiring minds have to know:

i just installed the mid and tip from the 8 foot rod on the nine foot rod (both marked "4") and walked down to the pond. the ferrules are a fit. it handled a five weight line nicely. then i tried the nine foot mid and tip. could have used a six weight. the taper may be identical. i regret i do not have an eight and a half foot rod to try, marked "4". i do have one marked "9" with a dot under the open loop. it has larger ferrules. the number may indicate the taper, ferrule size and wrap pattern. interesting.

rods made after 1938 may have additional or other meanings for the numbers stamped on the butt caps.

regards, jim winfree

[Norimasa]

Dear Jim

I have only started our interesting discussion.
This finding is yours, Jim.
Your view point for reasoning is very acute.
I would like to reinforce your hypothesis based on another example.
I have one of the oldest short-type Special (6'08'', 2/2 for 3/4 weight) with olive wrapping tipped red. (see my blog page on this Special; http://blog.goo.ne.jp/norisan69/e/985cf42f426c7813e76301c87d0a0ce2)
6'08'', I believe, is basically the shortest length in the FET Special series, and must have had a pair of the smallest ferrule.
Then, what die stamp do you think is on the butt cap?
As you might expect, the number is "0 (zero)"!
It strongly suggests the relationship between the number and the ferrule size.
Good inspector, Jim!

By the way, my 9-footer FET Special has a crisp dry-fly action for #5 weight.

Regards,


norimasa

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

hello again norimasa,

i am hoping we can expand the number of "4" marked rods with intermediate wraps from the three we have. this will likely take a lot of time. i have been wondering about the marking of the f e thomas rods since 1954 (yes, i was 16), and have never been comfortable with the theory that a single letter or symbol could be the basis for a reliable means of determining when a particular rod was made nor why that information would be of much value to the maker of the rod. but time may tell, and until we discover a rod with original wraps which negates the hypothesis which we are considering, i will continue to think that we are on the right track.

i do not think i have ever had more than one of the f e thomas rods out of the tube at one time before yesterday, and certainly had never had occasion to lay the butt of the eight foot marked "4" rod next to the nine foot rod marked similarly and without your request would probably never have done so. therefore, i would have never known the ferrules were interchangable (i beleive the butt to mid male measures 7 mm).

i have a nine foot rod marked "equalateral triangle" on the butt, an eight and a half foot rod marked "9", and a six foot eight (or the tip and butt of a ten foot rod) marked "9" with dot under the open loop of the nine - all with intermediates. i will post the measurements for them in your thread. i do hope ffpapa will provide the measurements for his rod marked "7" with intermediates, and that northcountrybrookies will provide the measurement from the hookkeeper to the first or "stripping" guide as well.

this subject is of great interest to me. thanks again!

highest regards, jim w

[North country brookie]

Jim,

The measurement from the hookeeper to the center of the stripping guide is 20 1/8". FWIW, the buttcap on my Special has the bullseye, with the 3 in the center of the bullseye.

Good luck, I'd love to know the age of the rod. I'd say 1920's, if I had to guess, though I'm far from an expert.

NCB

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

thanks NCB for the information

i will measure the nine foot and the eight foot rods and post the results.

regards, jim w

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

it appears, as well as i can measure over varnish, that the nine foot and the eight foot (special) rods share the same taper. i will verify my findings with a practicing rodmaker.

regards, jim w

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

can it be that norimasa and i have 75% of all the f e thomas rods marked "4" on the buttcap known to forum members? (two nine foot rods and one eight foot rod) cwfly lists one other, a 7foot 6 inch browntone (no further description). as this thread has turned up fewer than thirty rods retaining intermediate wraps; i must conclude that these are very rare items, indeed.

if only someone could provide information on at least one more "4" rod, in any condition, the data would be most greatly appreciated.

highest regards, jim w

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

hello uppercreek,

   the ferrules on my nine and eight foot "special" rods both measure 16/64 inch and 10/64 inch just as do yours on your eight foot rod.  i would be willing to bet my photos of bigfoot wrapping f e thomas rods in the old factory that the taper on our rods is also identical.  32 is an awluf lot of intermediate wraps between the end of the signature wraps and the stripping guide.
 
   thanks for the boost to the hypothesis that the numbers on the butt caps somehow represent a model/taper/ferrule size(s).

highest regards, jim winfree

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

hello kevin,

   yes, it is interesting, but i fear that there will never be sufficient data (hard evidence) accumulated in one place to provide a determinative result concerning identical features of similarly marked rods.

   yes, it would be helpful if a customer "brought in" a rod or rods needing replacement parts, and keep in mind when fred thomas began marking his rods customers were living in a horse and buggy age with no commercial airplane service and very few horseless buggies or telephones and almost no long distance phone service.  much travel by "the sports" was accomplished through travel by train.  the u. s. mail and the telegraph were the primary methods of long distance communication for many years.

   we know of one more rod marked "4", a seven and one/half foot rod reported by cwfly but no other information was forthcoming.  i do hope for some more rods similarly marked in order to refute or confirm this hypothesis.

highest regards, jim winfree

[Dewardian]

If it helps the cause I have a FET "Special" 8' 3/2 #5    red wraps, marked "35" on the butt cap. 

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

hello dewardian,

   yes, it would be very helpful if you could post all particulars of your rod. 

   i am confused, if your rod is marked "35" on the butt cap, where does the number 5 (five) apppear?  on the rod?

   thanks for replying,

highest regards, jim w

[stephen kiley]

this is just a thought,if when they cut out a taper the sections were made long and differant length rods could be made depending on where the blanks were cut.just an idea,steve

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

stephen[/b] kiley]this is just a thought,if when they cut out a taper the sections were made long and differant length rods could be made depending on where the blanks were cut.just an idea,steve

hello steve,

based on my comparison of my nine foot and eight foot specials marked "4" on the buttcap, it appears that they do have the same dimensions and the ferrules do interchange one with the other starting at the butt-to-mid ferrule.

more hard data needs to be accessed before making any definitive comments, however.

highest regards, jim winfree
     

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

hello all,

the scenario i envision goes this way:

fred thomas sits down with his wife and his financial advisor (or investment banker) together with a "S.B.A." business plan.

item one: real estate and physical property
well, where i am sitting.

item 2: personnel
me and e.w.

item 3: products
fishing rods, both fly and boat(bait)

            type          action        purpose
no.1  std. trout     soft          wet flies/bait
no 2.  "       "        medium    wet or dry flies
no.3   "       "        stiff           dry flies
no.4  lt. trout        soft          wet flies/bait
no.5   "     "          medium    wet or dry flies
no 6   "     "          stiff           dry flies
no.7  hvy.trt/sal    soft           wet flies/bait
no.8       "      "     medium     wet or dry flies
no.9       "      "     stiff            dry flies

no. 0  reserved for special orders

triangle    ??

diamond  ??

*             used as witness mark on ferrules (note:  e. w. taught me this trick)

. . . . . . . .in future, numbers may be combined in clever ways to denote other features of my rods (e.g. no 2 2).

item 4 and et c.

(mauroff pointed out a potentially confusing aspect of the "proposed product list".  actually as i envision it the list may be (re)structured in a number of ways.  the sales manager might want the most popular models listed first, even a "loss leader" first, and the industrial engineers might insist on putting the small, light rods first as they would require the least material cost per unit produced.  and so forth.)

just the way i see it,  jim w

[maruoff]

I have a very nice 8ft 3/2 all cork reel seat FE Thomas that has three concentric circles and a 7 on the butt cap that is also kind of "overstamped" with an 8 (the 8 was stamped first and then the 7 was stamped over it). it also has a point stamped on the butt cap. kind of strange and these numbers would probably contradict your findings as this is a sweet and nice very lightweight 4/5-weight wet fly taper and not a "heavy trout" rod. or what do you think?

Rod has been restored but all parts were original to the rod.

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

I have a very nice 8ft 3/2 all cork reel seat FE Thomas that has three concentric circles and a 7 on the butt cap that is also kind of "overstamped" with an 8 (the 8 was stamped first and then the 7 was stamped over it). it also has a point stamped on the butt cap. kind of strange and these numbers would probably contradict your findings as this is a sweet and nice very lightweight 4/5-weight wet fly taper and not a "heavy trout" rod. or what do you think?
Rod has been restored but all parts were original to the rod.

hello maruoff,

oh, no!  not an overstamp to further complicate matters.

my "findings" were an example.  actually, i think the list should have started with the "light trout" model but i wanted to demonstrate that there were over one hundred ways such a list could have been arranged.  not a contradiction at all.  at this time, probably the best information you could provide would be the ferrule sizes and an image of the stamps on the butt cap.  the actual taper would be cool, but i am cautious about micing these old rods with varying amounts of finish on them.

thanks for responding, highest regards, jim w

  

[Pteronarcys]

F. E. Thomas Special 8-foot, 3/1

signature wraps above winding check: broad band of red, tipped yellow, followed by three sets of narrow wraps -- red, yellow, red

heavy English-twist snake guides

guide wraps: red, tipped yellow

tip top is backstrapped

original finish with no intermediate wraps

male ferrule slides: 16/64 & 11/64

all nickle-silver slideband seat with delicate sliding band

"4" stamped on the end of the seat at the center of three concentric rings

A smooth casting 4-wt

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

Pteronarcys[/b]]F. E. Thomas Special 8-foot, 3/1

signature wraps above winding check: broad band of red, tipped yellow, followed by three sets of narrow wraps -- red, yellow, red

heavy English-twist snake guides

guide wraps: red, tipped yellow

tip top is backstrapped

original finish with no intermediate wraps

male ferrule slides: 16/64 & 11/64

all nickle-silver slideband seat with delicate sliding band

"4" stamped on the end of the seat at the center of three concentric rings

A smooth casting 4-wt

thank you pteronarcys,

your ferrule sizes are so close to the three rods on which i have measurements.  the butt-to-mid is right on and the mid-to-tip is only one number off.  we may have to go to measurements in thousandths of an inch for more accurate comparisons.  weights of rods will not be of any assistance as different reel seats could throw off any determinations of tapers which i believe will be the real reason behind the marks on the butt caps. 

my eight likes a five weight better but that could be the type and brand of the lines used.

this is good information.

highest regards, jim w 

edit:  images of my nine and eight foot rods stamped "4" on the butt cap are on jesse james' thread (fe thomas rods) below in this topic 

[teter]

This 8 1/2-foot Dirigo has a 9 with a dot under it. It has 11 intermediates between the signature wraps and the stripping guide and has 16/64 and 10/64 ferrules (if my poor eyes are reading the micrometer correctly), and has a smooth medium action with a DT4 or WF5.