f e thomas single no. rod current --- measuring no. 4 rods

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: f e thomas

#101

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

hatch wrote:Thought I would throw in my two cents worth. I have a 9' 3/2 Dirigo. Bamboo tip tube, 3 compartment canvas bag. Three circles and a 4 on the butt. grip 5 1/4 long, 21 1/4 inches from winding check to stripping guide 19 intermediates from Dirigo signature wraps to stripping guide. Good luck
dear hatch,

your two cents worth may have been in the form of four 1793 one half cent coins ;) .
we now have four no. four rods to study for similarities. i hope the stewards of the three other no. four rods of which i have knowledge will provide information about their rods.

regards, jim w

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Re: f e thomas 1 # rod information requested (9'# 4 taper )

#102

Post by Broken Rod »

Hello, Jim W.

With four rods with the same number (4), you should have a significant data base.
Go for it! :D
"He started off in the wood-turning trade."
Profile on Fred Thomas, 1906

Author:
Successful Shark Fishing (1996)
Classic & Antique Fly Fishing Tackle (1997, 2002)
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

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Re: f e thomas 1 # rod information requested (9'# 4 taper )

#103

Post by reelill »

I am sure my friend will gladly share what ever he can about this one previously mentioned just let me know. I need better photos anyway.
Richard
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Image
Last edited by reelill on 03/04/18 12:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: f e thomas 1 # rod information requested (9'# 4 taper )

#104

Post by cdmoore »

.
Last edited by cdmoore on 08/30/15 20:58, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: f e thomas 1 # rod information requested (9'# 4 taper )

#105

Post by Short Tip »

Hi Chris,

I don't know about shop notes, but I've always thought the answer lies somewhere near your ideas. The common thread is not the rods or their attributes - that has been shown conclusively, at least to my satisfaction. The idea that it may have been an assembler's or finisher's mark makes the most sense to me.

The rectangle, rhomboid and dot are all year designations, and are in the ledger.

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Re: f e thomas 1 # rod information requested (9'# 4 taper )

#106

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

Broken Rod wrote:Hello, Jim W.

With four rods with the same number (4), you should have a significant data base.
Go for it! :D
hello again a j,

consider these three significant changes in the history of the f e thomas shop. the popularity of the hardy down locking reel seat, the introduction of leon thomas's famous ledger, and the phasing out of the all metal slide band reel seat. fred's single number became redundant, but leon liked being able to identify a given rod with his ledger.

regards, jim w

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Re: f e thomas 1 # rod information requested (9'# 4 taper )

#107

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

reelill wrote:I am sure my friend will gladly share what ever he can about this one previously mentioned just let me know. I need better photos anyway.
Richard
Image
Image
hello reelill,

yes, we are far from a definitive answer and all information about single digit and double digit rods is gratefully accepted.

your friend's rod is one which i do have in my records.

regards, jim w

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Re: f e thomas 1 # rod information requested (9'# 4 taper )

#108

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

cdmoore wrote:Sorry if this is a little OT and maybe this has already been discussed here or elsewhere, but I'm curious what the theories are as to Why? the rods may have been marked as they are, if they are NOT serial numbers of some kind, or even if they are. I know very, very little about FET rods, but reading this thread I started wondering if the marks said less about the rods and more about the folks working on them, like Hardy reels perhaps. If we let the numbers represent tapers, why would you want to know this from numbers on the butt cap? Faster than measuring one or two spots on the rod? A raw number under varnish? Why couldn't you tell this just as quickly from other features of the rod? What if we let the numbers represent hardware? A pin gauge will tell you pretty quickly what the ferrule diameter is. What would be the point of indicating this info on the butt cap? Would knowing who made the rod or hardware be helpful from a production or pay standpoint? Post delivery quality view? Are there any shop notes that might point in this direction?

Cheers,

Chris
c d,

what i am investigating is a hardware/inventory solution, where by, hardware components would be pre-staged by some control method for use on certain "standard" rods. fred thomas would have had an idea of how many rods of a certain type he wanted on hand and work in progress. some of these items had to be worked and machined.

glad to have you in the discussion.

regards, jim w

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Re: f e thomas

#109

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

Broken Rod wrote:
Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:
i now prefer a hardware explanation for this puzzle (with possible taper influence).
single digit numbers on other than fly rods may or may have not had the same meaning to fred thomas.
Back to you, Jim

I can't agree. The casting rods of the "number era" have the same taper and hardware-- Fred's patented 1913 reel seat, agate guides, and a singular taper for that model. Yet they have differing numbers. If there is no variance in the taper or hardware, then why would Thomas pinpoint the obvious? The varying numbers relate to something else, not taper or hardware.

When you say, "single digit numbers on other than fly rods may or may have not had the same meaning to fred Thomas," do you mean Fred had varying criteria for the same number? That's illogical and destroys the premise of any numbering system. I'm not trying to be feisty, but the numbers don't appear to relate to tapers, hardware, or (in the case of casting or bait rods) the exact size of a grip check that never varies.
hello again a j,
"a grip check that never varies" - this ring is not needed on the full metal or the all cork reel seats, it appears that wood inserts are found on only about one-fifth of the fly rods; and the outside diameters of all types of reel seats before the hardy style locking seat vary widely. i have never seen the inside of a wood insert reel seat so have no idea how the grip checks were sized for inside diameter. full metal seats have the bamboo shaft about two and a half inches short of the butt and are inserted in a wood "filler" and the transition to the cork grip is integral to the metal tube. i have never seen how the all cork reel seats are configured, grip checks for the wood insert rods may have had a "standard" inside diameter, and been sized to fit the insert. consequently, for this reason, i have ignored their place in any scenario of construction. i hope this helps.
regards, jim w

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Re: f e thomas 1 # rod information requested (9'# 4 taper )

#110

Post by jeffkn1 »

Fred commonly entered notes in his memo books regarding rods to be made for specific customers, or rods owned by specific customers that he'd measured. (It was never clear which.) Four specs were commonly written down: the length, the number of sections, the ferrule sizes, and the tiptop size. Sometimes he would note special requirements for the grip or the seat. No reference to tapers was used, IIRC. I'm inclined to believe that he was in the habit of making blanks in standardized lengths and cutting them to suit the application, in which case the ferrule and tip dimensions were all he needed to know where to cut.
The two Thomas books to be published in the near future are based on inspection of, including in many cases ownership of, somewhere in the area of 150 to 200 individual Thomas rods and the pre-Leon butt cap markings have not suggested anything more sophisticated than possibly year of manufacture. We'll have to agree to disagree regarding the meaning of the number on the butt cap.

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Re: f e thomas

#111

Post by Broken Rod »

Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:
Broken Rod wrote: I can't agree. The casting rods of the "number era" have the same taper and hardware-- Fred's patented 1913 reel seat, agate guides, and a singular taper for that model. Yet they have differing numbers. If there is no variance in the taper or hardware, then why would Thomas pinpoint the obvious? The varying numbers relate to something else, not taper or hardware... or (in the case of casting or bait rods) the exact size of a grip check that never varies.
hello again a j,
"a grip check that never varies" - this ring is not needed on the full metal or the all cork reel seats, it appears that wood inserts are found on only about one-fifth of the fly rods; and the outside diameters of all types of reel seats before the hardy style locking seat vary widely...
Hello, Jim

When I use the term "grip check," I mean the German silver band at the forward end of the grip. In the case of a standardized bait casting rod, like the Montauk, the taper never varies and likewise the inside diameter of the grip check always remains the same. We find Montauks with differing numbers.

You say, "the outside diameters of all types of reels before the Hardy style locking seat vary widely." Thomas used only two sizes of metal seats on his trout rods-- 11/16 and 3/4 of an inch-- plus one size larger on his two-handed salmon rods. Wooden barrels for his cap-and-ring seats were also turned in two sizes. I can't say these seats "vary widely;" they are standardized stock items.

I can't see where tapers, ferrule sizes, grip check sizes, grip lengths, seat lengths, number of intermediates (which did vary widely according to which woman wrapped them), have any connection to butt cap numbers. That leaves few choices left. ;)
"He started off in the wood-turning trade."
Profile on Fred Thomas, 1906

Author:
Successful Shark Fishing (1996)
Classic & Antique Fly Fishing Tackle (1997, 2002)
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

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Re: f e thomas

#112

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

Broken Rod wrote:
Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:
Broken Rod wrote: I can't agree. The casting rods of the "number era" have the same taper and hardware-- Fred's patented 1913 reel seat, agate guides, and a singular taper for that model. Yet they have differing numbers. If there is no variance in the taper or hardware, then why would Thomas pinpoint the obvious? The varying numbers relate to something else, not taper or hardware... or (in the case of casting or bait rods) the exact size of a grip check that never varies.
hello again a j,
"a grip check that never varies" - this ring is not needed on the full metal or the all cork reel seats, it appears that wood inserts are found on only about one-fifth of the fly rods; and the outside diameters of all types of reel seats before the hardy style locking seat vary widely...
Hello, Jim

When I use the term "grip check," I mean the German silver band at the forward end of the grip. In the case of a standardized bait casting rod, like the Montauk, the taper never varies and likewise the inside diameter of the grip check always remains the same. We find Montauks with differing numbers.

You say, "the outside diameters of all types of reels before the Hardy style locking seat vary widely." Thomas used only two sizes of metal seats on his trout rods-- 11/16 and 3/4 of an inch-- plus one size larger on his two-handed salmon rods. Wooden barrels for his cap-and-ring seats were also turned in two sizes. I can't say these seats "vary widely;" they are standardized stock items.

I can't see where tapers, ferrule sizes, grip check sizes, grip lengths, seat lengths, number of intermediates (which did vary widely according to which woman wrapped them), have any connection to butt cap numbers. That leaves few choices left. ;)
hello a j,
thanks for the information. i guessed you meant the german silver bands between grip and reel seat on some of the rods. the wood inserts and all metal seats vary widely in my experience in that my all metal maximum at .753 inch and minimum at .701. fred produced a rod with very well fitting seats. i have two loose metal seats and can not comfortably interchange them. interestingly, the wood and cork seats are tapered from back to front, max .710 and min 698 at grip check.
i have not examined any "bait" type rods and would appreciate any measurements you, and other respondents might provide. bob s. has taper boards, may be thomas or leonard. he said to the best of his memory the single digits were some kind of "inventory" number. i think he is correct, but the inventory was of work in progress, namely reel seats and butt caps; after all, the numbers are usually stamped there. just my thinking.
"few choices left" wink wink, nudge nudge! indeed so ;) ;)

regards, jim w

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Re: f e thomas single no. rod information requested, please

#113

Post by Broken Rod »

Hello Jim,

I know Bob S. doesn't have the Thomas patterns. Walt Carpenter owns them. They're not taper boards but metal patterns, each filed down through casting trials until Fred achieved the correct "action." None of the old-timers, including Leonard, Thomas, Payne, and Edwards, developed "tapers." The word wasn't in their vocabulary. The very idea of using a "mathematical formula to develop tapers" was a legend started by Marty Keane. All three original bevelers-- Leonard's, Thomas', and Payne's-- were built on the same principle, perhaps also the one built by Billy Edwards who was totally familiar with Fred's, and who was probably helped by Fred in its development. Each maker had 3 basic wet fly actions and 3 dry fly actions. The Streamer Rod was nothing more than Fred's "Heavy Wet Fly Action" with a new name; and I'm willing to bet that Jim Payne's Canadian Canoe Rod was based on one of his father's heavy wet fly actions. I don't know when the word "taper" or the concept of mathematical tapers began... but it's a modern term for a modern idea. ::)

The two existing Thomas memo-books record each rod to a specific customer, give its length, give both ferrule sizes, and sometimes the grip style and length... just as Jeff noted above. I don't see anything complicated here. No hidden work secrets. Certainly no "compound tapers." And no measurements of how far the butt shaft entered the reel seat. Indeed, the numbers on the butt caps refer to something that perhaps only Fred knew. And Fred is Dead (God bless his creative soul).

In researching the rods of Fred Thomas, I have found far more variables than any set of numbers could possibly indicate. He made more "one off" rods than any other maker. Variations alone account for hundreds of what we might call "models." The man was prolific and he possessed an imagination-- a "creative flare," if you will-- that no other maker brought to the bench or beveler. I have no idea what the numbers mean, other than a rough guide to the rod's year of production. I have just enough rods without numbers, some early, some in the teens or later, and even without intermediates, that their quantity (if taken on the whole) creates a numerical (or non-numerical) anomaly. The very idea of taking calipers and searching for some undefinable quirk is inconceivable to me. Thomas inherited the "Hiram ethic," but unlike Leonard he had no pre-conceived standard beyond making the best rod he could design. He winged it. And doing so, he became the most creative rodmaker this country will ever see. :pipe
Last edited by Broken Rod on 10/02/14 08:51, edited 1 time in total.
"He started off in the wood-turning trade."
Profile on Fred Thomas, 1906

Author:
Successful Shark Fishing (1996)
Classic & Antique Fly Fishing Tackle (1997, 2002)
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

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Re: f e thomas single no. rod information requested, please

#114

Post by Short Tip »

Thank you, AJ, great stuff.
:wave
Broken Rod wrote:Hello Jim,

I know Bob S. doesn't have the Thomas patterns. Walt Carpenter owns them. They're not taper boards but metal patterns, each filed down through casting trials until Fred achieved the correct "action." None of the old-timers, including Leonard, Thomas, Payne, and Edwards, developed "tapers." The word wasn't in their vocabulary. The very idea of using a "mathematical formula to develop tapers" was a legend started by Marty Keane. All three original bevelers-- Leonard's, Thomas', and Payne's-- were built on the same principle, perhaps also the one built by Billy Edwards who was totally familiar with Fred's, and who was probably helped by Fred in its development. Each maker had 3 basic wet fly actions and 3 dry fly actions. The Streamer Rod was nothing more than Fred's "Heavy Wet Fly Action" with a new name; and I'm willing to bet that Jim Payne's Canadian Canoe Rod was based on one of his father's heavy wet fly actions. I don't know when the word "taper" or the concept of mathematical tapers began... but it's a modern term for a modern idea. ::)

The two existing Thomas memo-books record each rod to a specific customer, give its length, give both ferrule sizes, and sometimes the grip style and length... just as Jeff noted above. I don't see anything complicated here. No hidden work secrets. Certainly no "compound tapers." And no measurements of how far the butt shaft entered the reel seat. Indeed, the numbers on the butt caps refer to something that perhaps only Fred knew. And Fred is Dead (God bless his creative soul).

In researching the rods of Fred Thomas, I have found far more variables than any set of numbers could possibly indicate. He made more "one off" rods than any other maker. Variations alone account for hundreds of what we might call "models." The man was prolific and he possessed an imagination-- a "creative flare," if you will-- that no other maker brought to the bench of beveler. I have no idea what the numbers mean, other than a rough guide to the rod's year of production. I have just enough rods without numbers, some early, some in the teens or later, and even without intermediates, that their quantity (if taken on the whole) creates a numerical (or non-numerical) anomaly. The very idea of taking calipers and searching for some undefinable quirk is inconceivable to me. Thomas inherited the "Hiram ethic," but unlike Leonard he had no pre-conceived standard beyond making the best rod he could design. He winged it. And doing so, he became the most creative rodmaker this country will ever see. :pipe

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Re: f e thomas single no. rod information requested, please

#115

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

Short Tip wrote:Thank you, AJ, great stuff.
:wave
Broken Rod wrote:Hello Jim,

I know Bob S. doesn't have the Thomas patterns. Walt Carpenter owns them. They're not taper boards but metal patterns, each filed down through casting trials until Fred achieved the correct "action." None of the old-timers, including Leonard, Thomas, Payne, and Edwards, developed "tapers." The word wasn't in their vocabulary. The very idea of using a "mathematical formula to develop tapers" was a legend started by Marty Keane. All three original bevelers-- Leonard's, Thomas', and Payne's-- were built on the same principle, perhaps also the one built by Billy Edwards who was totally familiar with Fred's, and who was probably helped by Fred in its development. Each maker had 3 basic wet fly actions and 3 dry fly actions. The Streamer Rod was nothing more than Fred's "Heavy Wet Fly Action" with a new name; and I'm willing to bet that Jim Payne's Canadian Canoe Rod was based on one of his father's heavy wet fly actions. I don't know when the word "taper" or the concept of mathematical tapers began... but it's a modern term for a modern idea. ::)

The two existing Thomas memo-books record each rod to a specific customer, give its length, give both ferrule sizes, and sometimes the grip style and length... just as Jeff noted above. I don't see anything complicated here. No hidden work secrets. Certainly no "compound tapers." And no measurements of how far the butt shaft entered the reel seat. Indeed, the numbers on the butt caps refer to something that perhaps only Fred knew. And Fred is Dead (God bless his creative soul).

In researching the rods of Fred Thomas, I have found far more variables than any set of numbers could possibly indicate. He made more "one off" rods than any other maker. Variations alone account for hundreds of what we might call "models." The man was prolific and he possessed an imagination-- a "creative flare," if you will-- that no other maker brought to the bench of beveler. I have no idea what the numbers mean, other than a rough guide to the rod's year of production. I have just enough rods without numbers, some early, some in the teens or later, and even without intermediates, that their quantity (if taken on the whole) creates a numerical (or non-numerical) anomaly. The very idea of taking calipers and searching for some undefinable quirk is inconceivable to me. Thomas inherited the "Hiram ethic," but unlike Leonard he had no pre-conceived standard beyond making the best rod he could design. He winged it. And doing so, he became the most creative rodmaker this country will ever see. :pipe
hello again a j,
many thanks for correcting my misdirections. 1) they certainly knew what a taper was. old hiram likely burned them in the shop while using sperm whale oil or naphtha lamps in the office if he had one. the superior candles were called tapers by the gentry. 2)x-ray of butt seat. a request for help by a young frenchman asking if his 7 foot rod had been cut down at the butt by 2 inches (approx.) we assisted him in determining that the rod had been re-handled and that the shaft was still intact. he was happy. 3) i do not recommend the use of micrometers to measure rods. i was admonished that my measurements were inexact. to assist in this study of the meaning of the fred thomas cypher one only needs a measuring device common in that time. baldwin and others were building locomotives and that task required precise measurements. 4) i can not consider the sports (or one-off rods) for, i hope, obvious reasons. i ask for measurements on only the rods with single and double numbers on the caps. the preliminary indications are that the three types of reel seat under consideration were drawn(or cut) and the length of the seats differed by 1/4 inch. but, to make things interesting, it appears some of the numbers had similar length reel seats. therefore, there was more data indicated by the numbers than merely length. 5) it is not unbelievable that fred thomas could remember dimensions for two sets of single digits; he certainly could recite his multiplication tables through the twelves.
i am not searching for indefinable quirks,just the facts.

regards, jim w

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Re: f e thomas single no. rod information requested, please

#116

Post by Broken Rod »

Hello, Jim

I realize you're not looking for indefinable Thomas quirks, but unfortunately they are there within the individuality of each rod finisher who dressed the grip and reel seat. We don't know exactly who finished any particular rod, although Billy Edwards worked part-time in that capacity for two decades. The lathe was a simple Fay & Scott model, made in Oxford, Maine, not a refined piece of machinery by modern rod-making standards. Take a look at it:

Image

Thomas used full metal seats purchased in "the raw" from Montague, originally developed and produced by George Varney in Central Valley, then in Poughkeepsie, finally moving his machine to Montague City. These "reel plates" were used by every Leonard-school maker. Thomas modified three styles, the dimpled version, a railed version, and a plain version (the most common). Here is a photo of the three styles:

Image

I would think that you would find variations-- "quirks" as you call 'em-- in the lengths and positions of the rails, perhaps even the pocket, depending who was finishing them. The human animal is an imperfect organism.

As far as I can tell, the same quirks would be found in the Thomas cap and ring seat. Yet by design alone, the seat is consistent. In the photo below, we see an early version (no number), and below it is a later version (#30 on the butt cap). They are remarkably similar in detail, right down to the trim rings. Yet handwork had variables, and I don't think we can superimpose modern technological facts back to a craftsman working at a Fay & Scott lathe. In this light, the minute variations you perceive as worthy of a special number probably didn't exist in the handcrafting days of Fred Thomas.

Image

However, if you wish, I can measure the length of the various Thomas reel seats I have in hand and post them. Like I say, I doubt the difference of 1/4 inch was significant to Fred Thomas. ;)
"He started off in the wood-turning trade."
Profile on Fred Thomas, 1906

Author:
Successful Shark Fishing (1996)
Classic & Antique Fly Fishing Tackle (1997, 2002)
The Demon's Door Bolt (2011)
Forging the Blade (2012)

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Re: f e thomas single no. rod information requested, please

#117

Post by JPMarci »

I am going to post these two rods and then spend the next hour reading the previous posts to see the connection.

Rod #1 9'0" Special - green wraps tipped red with full intermediates. Cork seat with tapered cigar grip. Cap is stamped 4 with three circles. The length of the seat and cork is 9" with the cane measured at 0.359 above the hook keeper. The ferrules are 0.260 and 0.170. The signature wrap is GRG RRRRRR GRG.

Rod #2 9'0" Diringo - red wraps with full intermediates. Metal seat with tapered cigar grip. Cap is stamped 3 with three circles. The length of the seat and cork is 9" with the cane measured at 0.364 above the hook keeper. The ferrules are 0.260 and 0.170. The signature wrap is RRRRRRRRRRR.

Both rods are medium/slow 4/5 weights. Now I will red the posts.

Regards

John

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Re: f e thomas single no. rod information requested, please

#118

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

a j,

answer tomorrow.

j w

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Re: f e thomas single no. rod information requested, please

#119

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

john,

many thanks, more tomorrow.

j w

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Re: f e thomas single no. rod information requested, please

#120

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

Broken Rod wrote:Hello, Jim

I realize you're not looking for indefinable Thomas quirks, but unfortunately they are there within the individuality of each rod finisher who dressed the grip and reel seat. We don't know exactly who finished any particular rod, although Billy Edwards worked part-time in that capacity for two decades. The lathe was a simple Fay & Scott model, made in Oxford, Maine, not a refined piece of machinery by modern rod-making standards. Take a look at it:

Image

Thomas used full metal seats purchased in "the raw" from Montague, originally developed and produced by George Varney in Central Valley, then in Poughkeepsie, finally moving his machine to Montague City. These "reel plates" were used by every Leonard-school maker. Thomas modified three styles, the dimpled version, a railed version, and a plain version (the most common). Here is a photo of the three styles:

Image

I would think that you would find variations-- "quirks" as you call 'em-- in the lengths and positions of the rails, perhaps even the pocket, depending who was finishing them. The human animal is an imperfect organism.

As far as I can tell, the same quirks would be found in the Thomas cap and ring seat. Yet by design alone, the seat is consistent. In the photo below, we see an early version (no number), and below it is a later version (#30 on the butt cap). They are remarkably similar in detail, right down to the trim rings. Yet handwork had variables, and I don't think we can superimpose modern technological facts back to a craftsman working at a Fay & Scott lathe. In this light, the minute variations you perceive as worthy of a special number probably didn't exist in the handcrafting days of Fred Thomas.

Image

However, if you wish, I can measure the length of the various Thomas reel seats I have in hand and post them. Like I say, I doubt the difference of 1/4 inch was significant to Fred Thomas. ;)
hello again a j, as i become older, the water is colder. no more fishing till may!
concerning reel seat lengths, the 1/4 inch increment was a wag. i find the lengths to vary on my rods from 3 3/8 inch to 4 1/8 inch, a "slightly" noticeable difference. if thomas had an overhead power belt system, he had water or steam source early; maybe gas or electric later. my 14 inch late 19th century machine-gunsmith lathe is quite sophisticated, and i surmise thomas had other lathes in his shop. more, when my shoulder heals somewhat, about lathes and my experiences with the williamsburg armor and wainwright shops and early accuracy. fred started in the woodworking trade.
concerning wood and all cork cap and ring reel seats. those i have are not "consistent"for length and, so far, are consistent with the all german silver seats with the same single number stamped in the butt caps. at this time, i believe the "no number" rods are not "standard" rods.
indeed, information from your rods would be most helpful.
regards, jim w (with bushmill's)

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