Phillipson Peerless question

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Invulgar
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Phillipson Peerless question

#1

Post by Invulgar »

As it happens, I am decided to end the utterly expensive hobby of buying bamboo rods. But I have also decided that I won't do it without acquiring two models that haunt me  in my dreams: a DF 50 and a Peerless Impregnated. One example of the latter variety has surfaced in the unmentionable site. But, contrarily to all others I have considered, it has an all-cork handle. Is it legit?
Regards to all the members of the best forum in the Web
HB

rsagebrush
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Phillipson Peerless question

#2

Post by rsagebrush »

HB - I have seen several on the auction site lately with all cork reel seats -  I don't know one way or the other but it seems like they could have been made at a later date from leftovers?  I really wouldn't know, it just doesn't seem Bill Phillipson to me.   Here is one that is real as far as I can tell. The famous 'No Rock and trippy 'Torpedo Grip' - from the rocket age. Perfect label and everything. Weighs 4.0 oz one my PO Scale. an upgraded 8040 in my opinion and just perfect with a 5wt line.

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Last edited by rsagebrush on 05/28/10 08:28, edited 1 time in total.

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firehole
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Phillipson Peerless question

#3

Post by firehole »

When 3M bought Phillipson the Peerless had either a no rock or all cork reel seat. Info from Sinclair's book.

Dennis

rsagebrush
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Phillipson Peerless question

#4

Post by rsagebrush »

Thanks for the clarification.  Seem to be a lot of them up for sale lately - I've hardly ever seen on before this year.

That 'No Rock' seat is amazing though.  When I put on a reel I wonder if it is going to stay on but it does.  Mr. Phillipson was a great innovator and designer. 

Invulgar
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Phillipson Peerless question

#5

Post by Invulgar »

A possibly legit Peerless, then. Thank you gentlemem. And rsagebrush, I presume yours isn't for sale...
Best,
HB

singlebuilt
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Phillipson Peerless question

#6

Post by singlebuilt »

That Peerless is from the 3M era.  I purchased 2 from Howard West, who retired from 3M a few years ago and also an additional unfinished rod with non-matching butt and 2 tips.  I also have an original ad card showing a Peerless with each style of seat.  Although all of them have been sold, I thought they were very nice rods.

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tedgolden
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Phillipson Peerless question

#7

Post by tedgolden »

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flyfishing4goldentrout
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Phillipson Peerless question

#8

Post by flyfishing4goldentrout »

Yes that is the exact seat as seen on all my fiberglass 3M completed rods. So saying its not really a "Phillipson" you will note in the sellers photo's there are no Inspectors marks, as their would be on a high grade bamboo "Phillipson".
We have run this same discussion on the Fiberglass forum to no end, simply put we have no idea who built the 3M rods, some speculation suggest Fisher, but to date we have no definitive explanation as to who finished the Phillipson enventory once it arrive at 3Ms site.
Being the owner of quite a few Post and Pre 3M and Phillipson made rods, I can for a fact say that with one exception, none of the later 3M made rods casts or feels like a Phillipson made rod. Oh While I have no Peerless grade rods to judge from, I do have quite a few Denver "Paramount" rods to compare. Also perhaps most of the Denver and 3M glass rods.
As a collectable I would place the same worth on it as I do my post Phillipson 3M rods, on the other hand as a rod to fish, I can say the 3M rods have proven themselves as rods to enjoy. No matter who finished them. This one is a very interesting rod, perhaps someone who owns a similiar Denver Peerless will win the auction and give us a more detailed evaluation of its comparision. Fisher first started making Bamboo rods, so they definately had the ability to finish the relocated Phillipson blank enventory, however I dought we will ever know who finished the vast Denver Phillipson enventory moved to 3M.
That much was left behind and Rick's Rods today still has a goodly enventory of glass early glass and parts should indicate that not everything was moved to 3M.
For what its worth I really like my glass spigot ferruled 3M Expoxites over the sleaved Denvery Epoxites so perhaps this is a lost example of the few bamboo blanks that went to 3M it surely is a Peerless and it surely has the 3M hardware, hopefully a forum member will win it and give us a detailed evaluation.
Richard

A post script here, how does the hook keeper compare to the Denver Peerless bamboo Rods?
Last edited by flyfishing4goldentrout on 05/29/10 17:41, edited 1 time in total.

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tedgolden
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Phillipson Peerless question

#9

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tedgolden
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Phillipson Peerless question

#10

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flyfishing4goldentrout
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Phillipson Peerless question

#11

Post by flyfishing4goldentrout »

tedgolden, your hossel and continuous step into the hook keeper matches many of Phillipsons rods, from some of the early X series Eponites to the 800 series Johnson Profiles of course the ring hook keeper was replaced with a standard loop on both glass models, however the rod in question looks from the pictures to have a stepped thread hossel from a later series grip than yours? The grip looks right for many of the Glass rods that came from the transitition, more of a cigar than the classic Phillipson torpedo or space ship shape of the 60s into the early 70s.



rsagebrush, your rod is an excellent example of a Phillipson Denver built rod of the mid to late 60s everything about it matches the best of the best of the rods both bamboo and glass that were comming out of that era! Much of the style and hardware matched my own Royal and Royal Wand glass rods of that same period. A really great looking rod for sure.


singlebuilt, is their any chance your friend Howard West is still available and could shed some light on who assembled the Phillipson stock once it arrived at the 3M assembly location? That would be some wonderful information that would certainly be of value to us all.


As to the rod in question, I still think it could be a 3M shop built rod, the hossel looks wrong but then so does the late modified cigar grip, which does follow very late 3M glass rods in design (no hossel on those rods) and the mini hossel does follow tedgolden's rod style into the ring type hook keeper. Also I might add it appears that both rods share the same gold wraps as do all of my late 3M produced Phillipson glass rods.


Guess its another can of worms as to who actually made the rods once they were relocated to the 3M site.


Richard

singlebuilt
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Phillipson Peerless question

#12

Post by singlebuilt »

Richard,

I think Howard would be the one to ask as I have been told that he was one of the individuals who was responsible for the launch of Scientific Anglers at 3M, and was working/collaborating/consulting with Bill Phillipson at that time.  I have to clarify though that I was only an acquaintance through my friend Ken Olson who is a friend of Howard's, and much of what I have heard about those last days was second hand.  I don't doubt that the info I heard was true, but its been nearly a decade and I would want to check my facts before speaking to make sure I didn't give out any wrong information.  I did talk wth Howard several times while fishing on the Rush River, but I haven't talked to him since he retired several years ago and moved to Hawaii.  I'll have to ask Ken if he has Howard's contact information....although I'm not sure he has spoken to him lately either.  Before Howard left for Hawaii, he submitted an in-depth report to the DNR and TU regarding his observations on the condition of the Rush River.  It is pretty interesting reading. 

When I purchased those rods and the ad card, I also purchased some old reel seat hardware, a few graphite blanks with steel spigot ferrules, a couple of epoxite blanks, about 40 spinning blanks (marked as seconds), a spool of rod binding cord, part of a binder and a dozen cigar grips that were leftovers. Most of the grips were bored to a spinning rod diameter.  The rods I bought did not have the torpedo grip nor that cone off the front.  They had the cigar grip like the ones I purchased.  If there is an interest in seeing the items that I have mentioned, I'm more than willing to snap pictures and send them to someone to post. 

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flyfishing4goldentrout
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Phillipson Peerless question

#13

Post by flyfishing4goldentrout »

singlebuilt, thanks, I would like to see pictures of the two finished rods you had for sure, with attention to the grips, seats and any hook keeper detail. Their does seem to be quite a few 3M Phillipson high end bamboo rods poping up lately and it would be helpful to base an opinion on which are parts rods and which are factory assembled. Also any information on who was assembling rods onsite at the 3M Minneapolis, Minnesota plant,, would be outstanding.

The metal ferruled graphite rods are called system G graphite, made on Carbonite Blanks after the 1973 purchase of the Carbonite Company of El Segundo, California. I purchased what Im lead to believe is the prototype of that series, it was originally auctioned by Leland, along with a photo showing the VIPs of 3M seated around a Desk with a Flyreel clock and two prototype fly reels that never went into production as well as the mentioned prototype G series rod. The rod was reportly tested by one of then on a fishing trip to NewFoundland for Salmon.

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note the Phillipson rod tube, removable fighting butt is missing
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3M scientific Anglers style rod sock
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Prototype came with two tips
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ferrule fit
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typical guide wrap
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translucent graphite blank color

Late 3M Minnesota built Epoxite Midge reel seat and grip
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3M Minisota address on tube
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This shows one of the styles of grip used on a late 3M Minnesota built Phillipson Epoxite
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Im lead to believe this was one of the last factory assembled rods from Minnesota

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This is a typical rod tube marking, note the 3M Minneapolis, Minnesota address
Anyway while I do have some Phillipson bamboo rods, all are Paramounts and all are dating from around 1950 (bakealite seat insert) and hammer grip, 1954 (no rock reel seat ) and hammer grip, and a few dating into the late 50s and early 60s, the late Denver style grip, seat and spiral wraps are high on my list. As well a factory made 3M rod could be interesting if I can put enough information together to insure Im not buying a parts rod for big bucks.
Richard


  

kenmnfisher
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Phillipson Peerless question

#14

Post by kenmnfisher »

Just stumbled across this Forum, and the photo of the Philipson Flyrod caught my eye. I worked for 3M back when 3M purchased Philipson and a Vice President gave me one of the bamboo flyrods in thanks for a favor I had done for him. I am writing this from our winter retreat in Florida and the flyrod is back home in Minnesota so I am going strictly by memory, that Rod has never been used and it is in the Philipson aluminum tube as pictured. It was given to me just after 3M purchased Philipson. I believe it is either a 6' or 6'6". I was told the rod was handmade by a man approximately 80 years old who was still working for Philipson at the time it was purchased. I was also told it was a dying art and this old guy was a master. Other than this, I no nothing of the rod. I am not a fly fisherman so have no idea of it's worth. Can someone enlighten me?

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doloresboy
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Phillipson Peerless question

#15

Post by doloresboy »

Ken:  Can't help with value.  When you get back to Minnesota take some pics of the rod and post them on the appraisal section of the board.

Here is a picture of a late model Peerless which I can't date.  It is a 2 piece 8' 5wt.  Can't find any reference to a 2 piece 8 foot rod in any Phillipson catalogues.  I'm thinking it is a 3M rod also.

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Matt

bluejayee
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Phillipson Peerless question

#16

Post by bluejayee »

Hi Guys,   My understanding is that Betty Malara and Paul Hightower, of Bob's Tackle in Denver, went to help 3M get started.  Both were former Phillipson employees.  Mike Sinclair could probably better speak as to what happened there.  Jay Edwards  

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Southbranch
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Phillipson Peerless question

#17

Post by Southbranch »

Matt, I have a 7 1/2' Phillipson Peerless 2/2 with the same grip, reel seat and cosmetics as shown in your photo and I've wondered when mine was made too.

A couple of years ago Rick's Rods (who has the Phillipson brand today and bought the equipment and rod building supplies from Bob's Tackle in 1997) listed a similar rod for sale, along with the following description:

“This rod was crafted in the late 1960's or early 1970's. The Perfection hard chrome snakes and carbide stripping guide are wrapped with Nymo Henna nylon thread with yellow trim. The reel seat is cork with bronze anodized aluminum down-locking hardware. Included are an original cloth bag and labeled Phillipson gold anodized aluminum tube.”

I read that 3M bought Phillipson in 1972, so our rods may have been among the last made under Bill Phillipson's ownership.

Pete

kenmnfisher
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Phillipson Peerless question

#18

Post by kenmnfisher »

doloresboy wrote:Ken:  Can't help with value.  When you get back to Minnesota take some pics of the rod and post them on the appraisal section of the board.

Here is a picture of a late model Peerless which I can't date.  It is a 2 piece 8' 5wt.  Can't find any reference to a 2 piece 8 foot rod in any Phillipson catalogues.  I'm thinking it is a 3M rod also.

Image

Matt

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oldschoolcane
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Phillipson Peerless question

#19

Post by oldschoolcane »

There are several different postings that explain how to post pictures on this forum, to start with I'd photograph the rod and download the photos into your home PC. Then add the photos to your forum profile, then follow the details for posting the images. Once this is complete I am sure someone here will be more than happy to verify the value of your rod.


Tim
Cedar Run Rods, rod-building & restoration.

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