PHY Perfectionist Action

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czkid
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PHY Perfectionist Action

#1

Post by czkid »

Please iterate your impressions of your experience casting the various Perfectionist originals AND clones please. I finally got an opportunity to cast my 5wt clone for a few hours on stream and I want to verify my impressions.

Petri Heil,

Ralph
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tapermaker
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#2

Post by tapermaker »

May i ask who made your clone ?

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#3

Post by Pentalux »

Just my two cents - probably not even worth that but -

The few clones I've handled seem to be much more averaged medium to medium/fast action rods than the one original I own. It is from the mid 60's and is definitely more parabolic than the clones but nothing like the most popular of all Parabolics - the Para 15. I have owned several originals and still have one.

Furthermore regarding the original PErfectionist, THink the taper being designed on 3 inch stations (I know some say 6 but...) has compound tapers that are simply lost in a 5 inch translation used by most of todays builders. As well think the taper actually diminishes just before and into/under the grip. Something the clones all seem to miss.

To me its a parabolic rod for sure definitely tuned for dry fly fishing compared to a para 15 but still capable of easily handling dry fly with two tailing nymphs three feet back... Essentially the original allows the caster to punch super tight loops easily but more importantly the rod allows for larger variations in loop size and line speed than I am able to produce with other 7 1/2 ft 4wt rods of similar weight.

For me its the Martha MArie that is probably the least parabolic of the Youngs that I have had the pleasure to fish with thus far. JMHO of Course.

Best to All, Rob

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czkid
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#4

Post by czkid »

OK what happened to all the other replies????? Hopefully the migration isn't over???
CZKid

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#5

Post by BobB »

May I also ask who made the clone?
If you would prefer, please respond to what ever they call an ezinbox now.

Bob

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#6

Post by poudre1 »

I would pretty much agree with Rob's description of the the PHY Perfectionist. Even comparing a Summers 275 to the original, the original is more powerful but still sweet casting. I have cast a few "improved" versions of the PHY family and only the Summers 856 is superior to the original. I have two Perfectionists, a 2 1/2 oz and a 2 7/8 oz (the famous 275 version) both of these rods have size 14 ferrules and are from 1967 in Bob Summers hand. I like them with a Rio Selective Trout WF4 line.

I disagree with the Martha Marie assessment however, owning one and casting my buddies 1950's rod. I feel that the late '50s rod is very full flexing parabolic. My rod which is a '67, feels like a Para 15 with the dry tip that is 6" shorter. Mine is almost clubby feeling and heavy in the tip. My two least favorite of the PHY rods is the Para 15 (I have a 1967) and the Martha Marie. They certainly cast well and have tremendous power, however, you have to work for it.

These are just my thoughts,
Dave

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#7

Post by quashnet »

It's worth keeping in mind the variety found in the Young rod models, never mind the clones to which they may be compared. Young continued to experiment and build variations even on his standard, cataloged models. There were at least two basic PHY Perfectionists, on which the Summers 260 and 275 models are based. Both the Driggs and the Martha Marie started out as lighter rods than they later became. The Martha Marie began as a rod with a 13/64 ferrule and 4 tiptop, became a 14 ferrule and 4-1/2 tiptop rod, and then in the late 1950's the MM could be ordered in a "Featherweight Deluxe" model with aluminum ferrules and two different tips, one for HDH and one for HEH lines. Bob Summers has said that there were no less than six different versions of the PHY Para 15. A three-tip Para 15 model was offered in the 1952 catalog. I have owned a lightweight, aluminum-ferruled, four-piece Para 15 (Young-built) and a heavy Summers-built Para 15 with two wet tips designed for night fishing for big browns on the Manistee River; two very different rods. This can be distressing if you seek standardization, and exciting if you value experimentation.
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#8

Post by creakycane »

In these various incarnations of the Young rods, changing the butt swell (or regression), as well as the tip diameter - either even a little bit - can change what one might call a "parabolic" feeling rod to a more dry fly action rod pretty fast. If the tip is thin, the rod will work off the tip and feel tippy and crisp (unless the butt gives with only a minumal amount of line out - then the worry is that the tip might be too fine). If the tip is thick (relatively), then the rest of the rod starts to activate at even short distances - and if design is not optimized - the rod will have that loggy feeling associated with some full- parabolics. As the Young catalogs discuss, I have no doubt that the compund tapers (and selection of Ferrule stations and spacing) can impact the feel. However, my conversations with Marty Keane over the years always seemed to come back to Marty's feeling that it was the cane selection. Even the description of the Perfectionist in a Young Catalog I have here (blue cover, date unknown) discusses the cane selection, power fibers etc. All business, very technical about the culm size and cross section and power fibers.. As a matter of fact, this excellent catalog is a revelation in terms of cane selection, rod construction, rod action etc etc. Not alot of babble about wraps colors, or engraved ferrules, or how much you will be gouged for a fancy case ImageThey mention in the catalog that none of the rods are full parabolic, but all are modified parabolic action rods, to varying degrees. So this term "parabolic" is not black or white - it's shades of gray, in practice. None are fully parabolic. IMHO, the Para 15 and Driggs I would describe as "parabolic feeling"; the Midges or Perfectionists I have seen I would not describe as "parabolic feeling" - to me, to call them parabolic is misleading solely because in my mental classification there are so many other rods that are "more" parabolic. Another inviduals mental library of tapers and how they feel may differ!......The MM (one orig and 3 copies) I would not describe as parabolic either - but reduce the butt dia by .02" and I may change my mind in a hurry!
I just received a Spittler 8' 5 wt 3 pc from a board member (what a pleasant transaction) and took the rod in the yard with a few others. I strung it up with a DT5 along side a Jennings 8' 5 wt and Jenkins 8' 4/5 wt both with DT5's. Wiggling the Spitter in the house, I would not generally describe it as parabolic feeling, but casting it, compared with the Jennings (a crisp, medium fast action with most of the fex in the upper half of the rod) and the Jenkins (a little more full flexing but similar), the Spittler felt quiteparabolic to me (powerful, rythmic full rod action). Definately a heavier feeling rod, also a quad, also hollow-built - so lots of variables here, but the general feel, in comparison, is parabolic. Again, I'm talking feel here, not science. Now, string up a Summers 260 with a DT4 and cast next to the Spittler, and my tendency to describe the Spittler as a parabolic-feeling rod diminishes with the MORE parabolic 260, arguably the most parabolic rod I own. Wow, a bit too much coffee today......... So, does Marty get his emphasis on cane selection from the Young catalogs, or is there really something about the Young rods that the copies aren't capturing adequately, or is it all romantic bs?
Last edited by creakycane on 08/09/07 13:06, edited 1 time in total.

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#9

Post by Tom Smithwick »

Image


The two tapers are from rod DNA. There are real differences in the tapers. Rod 1 is .203 in the middle, which is a 13 ferrule. I would consider this to be a mild progressive rod, similar to a Garrison. Rod 2 is .218 in the middle, which is a 14 ferrule. The strong middle and strong tip would qualify this as a parabolic design for sure. Yes, you can get into "when does a knife become a sword?" type of arguments. Some rods do feel more parabolic than others. I think length has something to do with it, too. To get the full slow flexing, but still powerful feel of a parabolic a certain amount of length is necessary. There would certainly be other factors, too. You can argue about tolerances and variations between rods, but in the case of these two rods, I think you are looking at deliberate design differences.

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#10

Post by canerodscom »

Folks,

A few replies to this thread were made during the transition from EZ Board to Yuku. If your response no longer appears here, would you mind reposting your thoughts?

Thanks,
Harry Boyd

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#11

Post by nohackle »

Harry,

I had one of those posts which vanished. I was agreeing with Jaybird, a very fine builder in his own right and someone who has cast a whole lot of rods in his time, that the description of semiparabolic given to most perfectionist clones has me scratching my head as well. I fully understand that Mr. Young's rods varied quite a bit and that everyone's own idea of ideal rod action will influence how they make their own copies but I've cast a bunch of perfectionist clones and some originals and I have yet found one that is anything but a very nice medium fast progressive taper and much more similar than dissimilar. The only exception is that rod of yours which is the only "perfectionist" I've fished that I would classify as a 4 wt ( ok, 4.5 wt Image )

My guess is the Ralph had picked up that perfectionist with an expectation based on the usual " got to get your timing just so", "flexes well into the butt when you push it " reviews most folks here use when talking about their new perfectionist clone. It is a great classic taper, especially nice for someone new to bamboo but not usually close to common descriptions. Curious dichotomy and I have my own evil theories . Image

that was about the gist of my post and not to embarrass you any that rod of yours has become a true extension of my right hand.

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#12

Post by BobB »


A very interesting thread. I really enjoy folks that can relate a rods action so ably.
I'm relatively limited as to slow, medium, or fast!

Hope there's some more input. Image

Bob P.S. Sorry for the double post! Thought the first one was lost. This new format appears to be a little slow at present!
Last edited by Anonymous on 08/09/07 13:16, edited 1 time in total.

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#13

Post by czkid »

This string goes a long way to accentuate the fact that you need to cast a rod before you buy it. Not a "similar" rod, but the very rod you intend to purchase. The learned discussions go a long way to illustrating how rods with the same name may have extremely different casting characteristics. The Perfectionist case may be a bit extreme, but if we consider the variations of opinion on various Orvis rod's casting characteristics I think we start to get an appreciation of how much difference the culm might contribute. Wouldn't it be interesting to have Orvis build 10 copies of the same taper, at the same time, with the same process... and then cast the results? I would suspect we'd all be amazed at the results.

One of the folks here mentions the fact that making rods on forms with taper variations at different centers produces a very different rod. Mike Brooks has commented on a couple of rods that I had him work with that they were of a "compound taper" where the variations were introduced every 2 inches. Some folks poo-poo things like that, but believe me, if a thud like I am can feel the difference, there has to be a real difference.

What we need to really know from this is: "What's in a name?" Obviously with products with a supposed PHY pedigree a wide variation of things.

Ralph
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uniphasian
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#14

Post by uniphasian »

poudre1 may have one

Image
- Uni

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#15

Post by spruce grouse »

uniphasian wrote:poudre1 may have one

Image
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage at least
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#16

Post by poudre1 »

uniphasian wrote:poudre1 may have one

Image
What's a Driggs?

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#17

Post by quashnet »

What's a Driggs?

Sort of a cross between a pool cue and a cattle prod, with some funny metal loops attached. I hear it's used for catching those fish with spots on 'em.
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#18

Post by slomoshun27 »

The closest I can come to relevance in this conversation is to thank Bobeegee because I am also unable to generate those Martin
Keanesque prose and usually devolve to "feels good, I like it" or "Nah, not for me".
I do have a rod in perfectionist taper from "Wanigas". I'm told that these used cane from the PHY shop and were finished by
Art Neumann's guys. The aluminum reelseat hardware with it's plastic screwlock threads sure looks like Young hardware
from the same era. With it's plain black wraps,. dark look and all cork grip/reelseat , it suits me right down to the ground.
If my Summers 856 and the Wanigas Perfectionist are both "parabolic", then I'm missing something. I can find only very small/no
similarities but then I've already mentioned my lack of finesse.
Please don't misunderstand me. I appreciate and admire those who can both feel and describe nuances of performance and
greatly enjoy reading their descriptions.

Slomo

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Bucky
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#19

Post by Bucky »

The first rod I built was a Perfectionist using Howell's taper from "The Lovely Reed". Since then I have wiggled and casted at least 5 other clones and a couple with altered dimensions. One was made as a true 4 weight. Every one of them are different than the true taper I was able to cast last year. As a hobbiest builder, one of the things I have discovered about cane is that a similar taper built by different hands will all feel different. Some of them were nice tapers and some seemed not to have a lot of backbone.

Eric

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#20

Post by BobB »

I would agree that the major contributor to the different actions experienced on supposedly the same taper would be the bamboo culm used to make the rod. I would suppose that Mr. Young used the same aged Tonkin Cane for his Perfectionists? Most all clones are made of Tonkin, but not necessarily the right Tonkin for Mr. Young's Perfectionist taper. I can think of no other material used in construction that would cause this
anomaly? Of course, no two rodmakers have the same hand. Even Mr. Young's hand may have been slightly lighter or heavier on any given day.

Just a thought.

Bob Image
Last edited by Anonymous on 08/15/07 15:35, edited 1 time in total.

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