How old is short???

[Gnome]

.

[Anglers Cane]

According to the illustration on the papyrus, not only was a short rod used, but the fisherman was also able to walk on water! Not many of the short rod users I know today are capable of such a feat -- except the Gnome, of course!

Tip,
why mock the man when he's done countless hours of worthwhile research on this subject, mostly for the benefit of all others for their consideration of the true origin of fishing?? Jealosy, maybe? I can't believe anyone here (or elsewhere) would take him to task because of the "appearance" of men walking on water! Does it not hit you between the eyes they did all of their paintings/carvings in 2D w/o a 3D effect? So it may seem that men are walking on water, but in reality, the depiction is of them standing on shore while "further out", others are in a boat....
Some may hide behind the "guise" of open opinion on the subject, but I won't pretend to know as much as/more than someone who has personally talked to an expert from said country........
A C

[czkid]

AC... sounds like the "yuk, yuk duo from comedy hour.."; if folks would think for a minute before hitting the keyboard it would save all from a lot of irritation or embarrassment. As I sit here in my "US Embassy, Cairo" polo shirt it struck me that nowhere in Egypt did I see any vegetation that would provide for a "fishing stick" much over 5 ft. in length. And as for the Greek situation, I've visited the area North of Thessaloniki where they claim the first flies were used , and there are no streams in the area today that would require anything much longer than 5 to 6 ft in length to fish adequately. So maybe the "Yuk, Yuk" twins might want to rethink their inane comments before they embarrass themselves some more.

The Old Grump

[czkid]

moonshine 2:

Re. your second post of the morn: Very probably somewhere in between those two figures is probably an accurate assessment. If you study the armaments and clothing existent at the museums in the area and also in Thessaloniki it's evident that the stature of the Greeks at the time was similar to that of the rest of the known world... i.e. folks were much shorter on average than we are today. It is nice to see that you do have the inclination to examine the subject seriously.

Re. your first input... it does not match up with the maturity of the 2nd. Such attempts at humor died out at about the Jr. High School level if I remember correctly. Yes, at times we are a dour and humorless lot... but it does save the feelings of some, and the lunch of others.

Ralph

[czkid]

The one liners are ''pretty sad"............. please spare us.

[ewp313]

LOL

[wrong66]

Same old arrogance that so many members complained of just recently. God help us if we should disagree with a moderator. I think Steve brings up a very valid point. He may or may not be right, but don't trash him (and this whole thread, for that matter) because he shares his ideas. I found Gnome's theories fascinating, as I did Steve's. Now it's just turned into another shouting match.

[andre49]

Same old arrogance that so many members complained of just recently. God help us if we should disagree with a moderator. I think Steve brings up a very valid point. He may or may not be right, but don't trash him (and this whole thread, for that matter) because he shares his ideas. I found Gnome's theories fascinating, as I did Steve's. Now it's just turned into another shouting match.

I really don'y care about any of the content in this thread but do feel people need to lighten up and laugh more.

[Anglers Cane]

My appoligies to the gentlemen here for allowing this to come to what it has become. Dispersions about intellegence and sense of humor I could let pass, but it's the condescension that I cannot let stand unanswered.

Here, here, moonshine! That, I can agree with you.

From one of the "YUK, Yuk boys"...... sarcasm dripping with jr. high humor for those who look and/or act like stuffed shirts! I have a very educated head, stuffed with newspaper!! hahaha LOL

Oops, now it's my dry humor showing through....

[Anglers Cane]

AC... sounds like the "yuk, yuk duo from comedy hour.."; if folks would think for a minute before hitting the keyboard it would save all from a lot of irritation or embarrassment. As I sit here in my "US Embassy, Cairo" polo shirt it struck me that nowhere in Egypt did I see any vegetation that would provide for a "fishing stick" much over 5 ft. in length. And as for the Greek situation, I've visited the area North of Thessaloniki where they claim the first flies were used , and there are no streams in the area today that would require anything much longer than 5 to 6 ft in length to fish adequately. So maybe the "Yuk, Yuk" twins might want to rethink their inane comments before they embarrass themselves some more.

The Old Grump

CZ,
so in your infinite wisdom, please explain to all of us underlings of the human race how the Egyptians got all those HUGE stones to the middle of the desert to build a thing called a pyramid, but was impossible for them to import a stick to fish with??

You really have this Pollock confused now....

[quashnet]

The assertion that only short rods were fished by the Egyptians is based upon an inductive argument. Strong reasons are advanced in support of the premise, so that the use of long rods is seen to be very unlikely. This may well be the case; it is probably the case - a conclusion based on the resources available and knowledge developed thus far through research. But an absolute guarantee of the truth of the conclusion that only short rods were fished cannot be provided through inductive reasoning. That is not to say that inductive reasoning is faulty; it has great usefulness, but the limits of what it can and can't provide for us must be kept in mind. Therefore I think it would be best if we were happy that Gnome is bringing exotic and unusual ideas to the Forum, instead of another iteration of "What's the best eight-foot five-weight?" And it would also be good to welcome others' interests in these ideas as expressed by their doing a little intellectual poking and prodding. Their comments are not attacks; rather, it is the give and take of stimulating conversation.

[quashnet]

By sheer coincidence, I came upon the following passage this morning while getting ready for the start of fall semester university classes. I think it has relevance to our continuing discussion:

"Intellectual understanding is one of the best versions of the Golden Rule: Listen to others as you would have others listen to you. Precise demonstration of truth is important, but not as important as the communal pursuit of it..." - Wayne C. Booth

[Gnome]

!

[cwfly]

Although I happen to believe, as a one time art historian, that much that is depicted in paintings, sculpture, mosaics and the like may be more symbolic than representational, you might wish to look at images of our patron Saint (the patron Saint of anglers) Saint Zeno of Verona (the same town that had many Montagues).
For example, there is a well known polychrome marble sculpture of Saint Zeno in the Verona Basilica di Saint Zeno that dates from the early 14th century. He holds in his left hand a crozier that has a line and fish suspended from it. I am inclined to believe he did not fish in the Adige River (where it is known he did fish) with a crozier. However, there is a later painting that may have a more accurate representation of Saint Zeno’s tackle. The National Gallery in London has a lovely painting by Bartolomeo Montagna of “Saint Zeno, Saint John the Baptist and a Female Martyr.”
This painting dates from about 1495 and if one zooms in on Saint Zeno on the left you will note he holds both a crozier and a fishing rod of significant length with a line attached at the top.
True, Saint Zeno died in about 417 so any representations of him would be hearsay. At the same time it is known that Claudius Aeilianus (aka Claudius Aelian) never fished and wrote that he had only heard of such fishing. There is another translation of his writings, which were written in Greek, that he wrote the rod was four cubits in length. If we assume that as a Roman he was referring to Roman cubits then the rod would have been closer to 7’ in length.
Just my thoughts.

[czkid]

CZ,
so in your infinite wisdom, please explain to all of us underlings of the human race how the Egyptians got all those HUGE stones to the middle of the desert to build a thing called a pyramid, but was impossible for them to import a stick to fish with??

You really have this Pollock confused now....
.................................................................
Good Question;

Wisdom not infinite, but the situation was probably a case of priorities... "commercial" fishing in Egypt both then and now was done with nets. Thus the demand for "fishing sticks" was probably limited at best.

When the "big guy" wanted a tomb, he wanted it.... regardless. One of the things you'll notice re. pyramids is that everything was done relative to water... the quarrying of the stone was done close to the Nile and the transport was down the Nile to the sites... which are also close to the Nile.

The best source of wood products of any kind was from the South, in the forested regions of Africa. Much of that material was floated down the Nile for pyramid construction... either in the form of large diameter logs for rollers or for sled construction. Moving anything across sand has its difficulties and ancient illustrations show both concepts. The ancient illustrations also allude to the fact that not much wood was utilized due to its being difficult to obtain.

So could longer sticks be imported???... probably, but since they had a ready supply of "river reeds" that possibly would reach 5-6ft and support any kind of a load, why bother?

Guesses abound, but one thing was certain, even in the good times in Egypt there wasn't much time for "casual" fishing except possibly for the well-to-do, and there doesn't appear to be a tremendous quantity of them.

The Egyptians did import a lot of things... but they tended to be relatively small, and "high end" items not available locally. They came in to Alexandria by sea or across the desert on beasts of burden...

Your old National Geographic magazines have lots of good info with pictures on the subject...

Ralph

[Gnome]

!

[oldfishbrain]

If you look closely you will see that all of the depicted rods were nodeless
Short and nodeless....that's my line

[cwfly]

Jeff,
There are several references to four cubits being the translation, one of which actually extends the conversion to 7-8 feet, a number I do not agree with.
1. Arundo (John Beever), Practical Fly-Fishing Founded on Nature, (London, 1849) at 56.
2. Fraser’s Magazine, Fishing Excerpts, Vol. II, October, 1853, at 474.
3. Wheeler, The Genesis of Fly Casting, in Western Field, Vol. 1, No. 1, August 1902 at 12.
4. Blakey and Smith, Historical Sketches of the Angling Literature of All Nations, (London, 1856) at 18 (quoting from Fraser’s).
5. Couch, Vol. 4, A History of the Fishes of the British Islands, (London, 1865) at 228.
6. Badham, Prose Halieutics: Or, Ancient and Modern Fish Tattle, (London, 1854) at 310.

[quashnet]

St. Zeno and his acquaintances, painted by Bartolomeo Montagna.
Note that the fishing rod is separate from the crozier.
Both objects are held together in the left hand.

[quashnet]

More Zeno, from the Church of St. Zeno in Verona, Italy.
Zeno has gotten rid of the crozier and kept the rod.
He has been fishing with wet flies! (see close-up).