Dyeing silk fly line?
Moderators: pmcroberts, uniphasian
Dyeing silk fly line?
#1Having New Zealand fantasies and many of the web sites talk about the "need" for drab fly lines in addition to 12' - 15' leaders. I have a couple 5 wt s from Phoenix in their standard natural/straw/yellow.
So two questions (I guess it's really three):
1. Will a drab line outfish a brighter one, all else equal?
2. And if so, is it practical to dye a silk line, and if so, how do you do it without damaging anything?
So two questions (I guess it's really three):
1. Will a drab line outfish a brighter one, all else equal?
2. And if so, is it practical to dye a silk line, and if so, how do you do it without damaging anything?
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#2In NZ sightfishing the waters are usually super clear and the fish spooky, so very long leaders and dull colored lines are the usual gear. If nothing else, guides usually insist that lines and clothing be drab. I tend to agree, but have never tempted fate by using a bright line. My NZ lines (non-silk) have at least the first 20' dyed to a dull color - easy to do with PVC lines.
I'm not sure how to dye a silk line because I would think that the same dressing or impregnation that keeps them floating would also inhibit a dye from penetrating and coloring the line. Amber or olive would be better than straw-colored ones if you have a choice.
I'm not sure how to dye a silk line because I would think that the same dressing or impregnation that keeps them floating would also inhibit a dye from penetrating and coloring the line. Amber or olive would be better than straw-colored ones if you have a choice.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#3I would guess, based on vast amounts of ignorance, that you would need to dye the line before any finish was applied. Even a stripped finish MIGHT ( or might not ) leave enough oils in the silk to repel any dye. Might be easier to buy a suitable silk line .
AgMD
AgMD
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#4If a line is floating on the surface, from the perspective of the trout, is the line not silhouetted?
Galt
Galt
Know the reasons for your actions
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#6I'll never forget, back in the 90's, when my guide in NZ asked to see my fly reel the night before 3 days with him. I thought, that's weird, and handed him my Ari Hart F2 with yellow fly line on it. He said "I'll bring it back to you in the morning". I was a bit miffed, but agreed. Next day, he hands me the reel and the line is almost black, a deep green! Well, it has actually faded over time to a perfect, dark olive color and I have never gone back to the bright lines since.16pmd wrote:In NZ sightfishing the waters are usually super clear and the fish spooky, so very long leaders and dull colored lines are the usual gear. If nothing else, guides usually insist that lines and clothing be drab. I tend to agree, but have never tempted fate by using a bright line. My NZ lines (non-silk) have at least the first 20' dyed to a dull color - easy to do with PVC lines.
I'm not sure how to dye a silk line because I would think that the same dressing or impregnation that keeps them floating would also inhibit a dye from penetrating and coloring the line. Amber or olive would be better than straw-colored ones if you have a choice.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#7There's another good reason to not use a guide. He'd be buying me a new line.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#8Indeed, and so is the fly . But many fly fishermen tend to care about physics only, when it correspond with their own imaginations.galt wrote:If a line is floating on the surface, from the perspective of the trout, is the line not silhouetted?
Galt
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#9I have dyed silk in the past. First you will have to strip the line using warm water and backing soda. Then use the color dye you wish to use. I used a strong solution of espresso coffee, just soak it until you get the color you want. Then you'll have re-coat the line with Overmywader solution. Give yourself a few weeks to do the procedure.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#10Bingo! To both of you, actually! I find this subject immensely enjoyable, as these same fishers will throw the gawdiest colored flies under the sun that have no equivalent in nature. But god forbid you have a colored line or leader......Morten wrote:Indeed, and so is the fly . But many fly fishermen tend to care about physics only, when it correspond with their own imaginations.galt wrote:If a line is floating on the surface, from the perspective of the trout, is the line not silhouetted?
Galt
I like the espresso method, Bob! More of a latte guy myself, though.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#11Has less to do with line lying on the water than it does line flashing in the air near the fish. If you line the fish with your line on the water in NZ it won’t matter what color it is - you might as well go find another fish.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#12In my long experience with all sorts of spooky fish in all sorts of venues, the color of the line on the water is not the issue. It's the color of the line hurtling through the air toward or worse yet, over the fish. Most fish are keenly attuned to assaults from above by avian predators, and any rapid motion up there will launch them in a panic. Brightly colored arms flailing nearby aren't much better.galt wrote:If a line is floating on the surface, from the perspective of the trout, is the line not silhouetted?
Galt
Drab lines and clothes aren't magic however. They just help. You still have to keep yourself and your line pretty much out of view- hence staying downstream of the fish and using longer leaders.
I recently (as in yesterday!) went through it with some laid up tarpon. I'd been using a clear fly line (Cortland Liquid Crystal) for weeks, and frankly I got sloppy. I had a line failure and switched to another line, the replacement a brilliant chartreuse. I'd positioned the boat a little too far in front of the tarpon, and my first cast launched the whole school screeching across the flats and out of sight before the line even landed on the water. Whoops. Moved on to more fish, lengthened my leader and took greater care in positioning the boat. I bet I cast 20 times without spooking the tarpon. Of course, I didn't get them to eat either, but at least I was able to waggle flies in front of their faces.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#13In their book The Trout & the Fly (1980), John Goddard and Brian Clarke photographed and described what is actually seen of a fly line on the water, from below, from the trouts perspective in the chapter: How the trout sees.
Anglers seem to forget about the 'mirror' and the 'window' under water. If we would sit on the bottom of a swimming pool looking along the length of the pool at the underside of the surface, we would see the tiles of the bottom of the swimming pool reflected in it, this is the underwater 'mirror'. As we would continue to look up, rather than along, the reflected tiles would start to have a curved edge giving way to our view of the somewhat distorted outside world above the swimming pool. As we continue to look up we would have a clearer view of the sky, roof etc. The edge of our vision (including the side peripheral) is almost circular and our view above and outside the pool would be somewhat distorted at the edges but mostly clear above. This is the 'window'.
Goddard and Clarke give several pages of involved explanation in diagrams and photos covering focus, refraction, depth of accurate vision etc.
The 'technical truths' they write::
' What colour of floating line is best? All the debate on flyline colour has been concentrated on appearances in the air, and on the water in the window. The photograph below reveals the truth…that it is not the line in the air or in the window that should be considered, but the line on the water in the mirror. The white flyline, although it causes a degree of flash in the air, is most of the time less visible to the trout. But it falls like a flash of white lightening across all the water surrounding the trout…across the mirror. There can be little doubt, as a consequence of our experiments and photographs such as the one below, that white or light-coloured flylines should not be used when the trout are close to the surface.'
The photo referred to shows the darker lines being very hard to see in the window, whereas the bright line really stands out. They go on to describe and show in photos that the nylon leader' or tippet is what will appear in the window above or near the trout and that it will be less visible, especially if treated to sink, up to the fly.
There are other variables to be considered also, the depth of the trout for example. The deeper the fish are the larger their upward 'cone' of vision is and the more of the outside world they can see, albeit somewhat distorted due to refraction. The closer to the surface they are the smaller their cone of vision and the less they see out, as it were, which might explain why you need to cast a dry in the path of a feeding surface fish for it to be able to see the fly.
Malcolm
Anglers seem to forget about the 'mirror' and the 'window' under water. If we would sit on the bottom of a swimming pool looking along the length of the pool at the underside of the surface, we would see the tiles of the bottom of the swimming pool reflected in it, this is the underwater 'mirror'. As we would continue to look up, rather than along, the reflected tiles would start to have a curved edge giving way to our view of the somewhat distorted outside world above the swimming pool. As we continue to look up we would have a clearer view of the sky, roof etc. The edge of our vision (including the side peripheral) is almost circular and our view above and outside the pool would be somewhat distorted at the edges but mostly clear above. This is the 'window'.
Goddard and Clarke give several pages of involved explanation in diagrams and photos covering focus, refraction, depth of accurate vision etc.
The 'technical truths' they write::
' What colour of floating line is best? All the debate on flyline colour has been concentrated on appearances in the air, and on the water in the window. The photograph below reveals the truth…that it is not the line in the air or in the window that should be considered, but the line on the water in the mirror. The white flyline, although it causes a degree of flash in the air, is most of the time less visible to the trout. But it falls like a flash of white lightening across all the water surrounding the trout…across the mirror. There can be little doubt, as a consequence of our experiments and photographs such as the one below, that white or light-coloured flylines should not be used when the trout are close to the surface.'
The photo referred to shows the darker lines being very hard to see in the window, whereas the bright line really stands out. They go on to describe and show in photos that the nylon leader' or tippet is what will appear in the window above or near the trout and that it will be less visible, especially if treated to sink, up to the fly.
There are other variables to be considered also, the depth of the trout for example. The deeper the fish are the larger their upward 'cone' of vision is and the more of the outside world they can see, albeit somewhat distorted due to refraction. The closer to the surface they are the smaller their cone of vision and the less they see out, as it were, which might explain why you need to cast a dry in the path of a feeding surface fish for it to be able to see the fly.
Malcolm
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#14Interesting subject about colors!
I watch the old movies of Lee Wulff, John Voelker, Curt Gowdy, etc. and what are these guys wearing? Red, blue plaid shirts. See (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwK0gYT ... 1CnJBF7gR3)......and these guys have caught more fish than I can dream of in my lifetime.
Have always wondered if wearing a light blue or creme colored shirt might make a person blend in with the sky / clouds but have fallen for the current fashions of olive, etc. shirts.
Years ago, when I was buying a set of waders, I had a choice of olive green or tan....was going to pick the tan when a guy said "If you're standing still in water wearing dark green waders and a fish sees you, the fish might just think that it's an old green log in the water ....since logs aren't a light tan color."
That got me thinking, so I bought the dark olive green waders. Still have them, but when I bought a couple other sets of waders, only the light tan color was available. Wonder what "intelligent research program" came about in the wader industry?
Oh yeah, don't forget about all the fellows (Halford, Skues, Marryat, etc.) that wore dark brown, wool herringbone suits with wide brimmed (dark) hats..... or in Marryat's case, a WIDE Tam.
I watch the old movies of Lee Wulff, John Voelker, Curt Gowdy, etc. and what are these guys wearing? Red, blue plaid shirts. See (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwK0gYT ... 1CnJBF7gR3)......and these guys have caught more fish than I can dream of in my lifetime.
Have always wondered if wearing a light blue or creme colored shirt might make a person blend in with the sky / clouds but have fallen for the current fashions of olive, etc. shirts.
Years ago, when I was buying a set of waders, I had a choice of olive green or tan....was going to pick the tan when a guy said "If you're standing still in water wearing dark green waders and a fish sees you, the fish might just think that it's an old green log in the water ....since logs aren't a light tan color."
That got me thinking, so I bought the dark olive green waders. Still have them, but when I bought a couple other sets of waders, only the light tan color was available. Wonder what "intelligent research program" came about in the wader industry?
Oh yeah, don't forget about all the fellows (Halford, Skues, Marryat, etc.) that wore dark brown, wool herringbone suits with wide brimmed (dark) hats..... or in Marryat's case, a WIDE Tam.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#15As to the original question : A; yes a drab line will outfish a bright/white/straw line in NZ(speaking from experience) . B; yes you can dye a silk line but if it has been treated/dressed you will have limited success as the oils within the line will prevent the dye from penetrating the silk.
I suggest that if you want to use a silk line get a pre-coloured one. The straw coloured line will work but your success may be limited; and use a minimum of 15' of leader; I had 17' and a straw coloured line and still had fish go down with the casting more so than the line on the water.
Cheers,
Mark
I suggest that if you want to use a silk line get a pre-coloured one. The straw coloured line will work but your success may be limited; and use a minimum of 15' of leader; I had 17' and a straw coloured line and still had fish go down with the casting more so than the line on the water.
Cheers,
Mark
He who shall not be able to make a trout fly, after studying these diagrams and directions, must be deficient either in brains or in manual dexterity. : Edward Fitzgibbon 1853
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#16But why cast the fly line, or the leader for that sake over the fish?. If you see a trophy brown in 20-40 inches of water, you can easily present fly and tippet only, inside the window.mrampant wrote:As to the original question : A; yes a drab line will outfish a bright/white/straw line in NZ(speaking from experience) . B; yes you can dye a silk line but if it has been treated/dressed you will have limited success as the oils within the line will prevent the dye from penetrating the silk.
I suggest that if you want to use a silk line get a pre-coloured one. The straw coloured line will work but your success may be limited; and use a minimum of 15' of leader; I had 17' and a straw coloured line and still had fish go down with the casting more so than the line on the water.
Cheers,
Mark
-
- Guide
- Posts: 317
- Joined: 09/11/14 21:16
- Location: Boise, ID
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#17I have marked my straw colored lines with dots and dashes to indicate line weight (as may do) with sharpie markers. The lines were fully finished and the sharpie penetrated just fine. Color has slightly faded, but is still quite dark. If you want to camo your line, I would recommend going after it with some green or brown sharpies... Personally, I find the straw color to already be fairly subdued once they get a little age and recoating with floatant.
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#18"If you see a trophy brown in 20-40 inches of water, you can easily present fly and tippet only, inside the window."
In my experience in New Zealand, that's fine if you're fishing a dry, but if you're fishing a nymph and the fish is 3 feet or more below the surface you may have to lead him by 15 feet upstream to get the fly to sink down to his level by the time it drifts to him. You're usually casting upstream, so if you cast only a few feet too long, he's going to see the line on the water or in the air even with a long (15' or longer) leader. And the fish's window isn't just upstream, but also extends behind him. If he sees the line it's Game Over! Ask me how I know!!
In my experience in New Zealand, that's fine if you're fishing a dry, but if you're fishing a nymph and the fish is 3 feet or more below the surface you may have to lead him by 15 feet upstream to get the fly to sink down to his level by the time it drifts to him. You're usually casting upstream, so if you cast only a few feet too long, he's going to see the line on the water or in the air even with a long (15' or longer) leader. And the fish's window isn't just upstream, but also extends behind him. If he sees the line it's Game Over! Ask me how I know!!
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#19Too bad, he took me on one of the 5 best trips of my life, as have other guides. And yes, I have excellent DIY trips as well...BambooNut wrote:There's another good reason to not use a guide. He'd be buying me a new line.
-
- Guide
- Posts: 174
- Joined: 10/04/16 07:12
Re: Dyeing silk fly line?
#20I think if I were spending the amount of money necessary to fly to New Zealand on a fishing trip I probably would spring for a drab colored line just in case rather than worrying about saving money by dying or coloring my existing line. Sort of like trying to balance the family budget by giving up chewing gum. On a lighter note when I was a kid (shortly after Abraham Lincoln was elected) there was a fad of "camoflage" dying of leaders in tones of green, brown and yellow. This fad didn't last very long - I guess fisherman felt that clear leaders made more sense.