Small stream/strong winds rod recs

[Short Tip]

Jeff, Japhy, I posted the distance casting video to make a point - there is no 2" loop. If a 2" loop was possible, and dramatically contributed to efficiency that much, those casters would have one. There's no way a caster with a fly rod can hold 20, 30, 40 feet of line in a loop of 2". If it could be done, there would be a photo, can you produce one? Or would you rather just say now you were using a little bit of the old gnome exaggeration?

Competition casting, distance and accuracy, uses the same principles as fishing. I've never met a good competition caster who wasn't an expert fisherman. My accuracy casts use a VERY tight loop, which I can adjust by adjusting my cast. It's nothing close to 2".

Jeff, I'd be happy to swap casting tips with you. You might learn something too! Don't forget to bring a tape measure.

[Gnome]

sparks a flying from the axe grinding, People who have seen me cast well know that your comment about exaggeration is BS!! period,!!

Ask Ron Barch or Mike Canazon. Or ask Joan Wulff what kind of caster I am.

To heck with the tape measure, come cast with me on the football field 200 yards from my house and then you to will know whether I am full of it or not!! I would be happy to prove you wrong. And later today I will pull out the video camera and do just that, ultra-tight loop film coming and I expect an apology when I film a 1 to 2 inch tall loop. tight loops fight the wind Period big loops are wind resistant and are not what you want when fighting windy conditions. Double Period!!

Film later this afternoon.

[Short Tip]

Jeff, easy now! I never said you weren't a good caster, I wouldn't know but I'll certainly take your word for it.
The tape measure is needed to measure the loop, isn't it?
And you are 100% correct that tight loops fight wind, big loops are not what you want. Tight loops are a function of line speed, timing and stroke. (Like everything in fly casting I guess)
But there's no 1 to 2" loop. I await your video.

[LeeO]

I fish the same area. I use a 7'6" 3 weight, based on a Cattanach taper. It does just fine for me. I think I used it last time I fished Rock Creek. I don't think I would call it a rod made for the wind though

[DrLogik]

...just another left handed shot...

You had to bring that up!?

ooh, ok, I'll bite, out of context of course! I don't see many windy conditions so tight loops for that is a moot point; however, the most important tool I have is I can cast almost equally well righty or lefty. My lefty double-haul makes me look like a spaz though , and I can't get past 70 feet lefty either. Where this comes in to play are the small "blue line" streams in the North Carolina mountains where I fish most often.

For what they lack in wind they make up for in low-hanging tough, tight casting situations. Both sides of the streams are canopied in rhododendron. So tough that if you can't bow and arrow cast or cast with your opposite hand you'll give up some really prime spots.

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

The most effective method to compensate for wind in a cast is fly line velocity, therefor the higher speed you can generate the less the effect of the wind over time. Yes a thinner line will have less drag effect but probably not enough to compensate for strong winds at a given speed. The speed generated by the cast will determine the effect of the wind over time (in a cast its a very short time). So a slow cast will be affected more than a higher speed cast. In general you need a rod that can generate a higher speed or a "faster" rod as they have been recommending.

-

yes, sir, and the longer the fulcrum, the faster the tip. let's hear it for long rods on windy days. i learned to fly cast in s d on spearfish creek where the wind starts in nepal and could blow down a signal corps camel; a caster was not considered accomplished if could not handle thirty yards plus 10 to 20 feet of backing out of the tip but was branded a wimp.

[snorider]

Well I would agree 100% with high line speeds, long fulcrums, tight loops, yada yada if you are casting INTO the wind.

I don't care if you can break the sound barrier with a 1" loop, if the wind is cross-ways to the stream, and remember this is about small mountain streams where near half the time the wind is probably crossing the stream, a long rod and overhead cast is going to leave you untangling a mess from the down wind bushes. The only way to keep your line in the creek with a strong cross wind is to either cast quartering into the wind and hope for a luck, or keep the dang line out of the wind.

I will reiterate that the 6' ish 4/5wt shines here simply because you can keep the line LOW by side arm roll casting. Hey, I am sure you guys can both cast a 100 yards, shoot yer loop thru a beer coozey and land the fly on a dime. But in SW MT when it is blowing 30mph if your line is above your head you are not hitting any small streams with any regularity, PERIOD! And yes I am "special" enough to want to fish a 8' wide ditch in a gale, and if I know before hand it will be windy I am grabbing my Hans Roeper made 6'6" Leonard 47 Hunt. And I am roll casting the equivalent of a worm burner in golf...but my fly is by gum in the creek!

[LeeO]

7613 is a good wind rod but a bit of a sledgehammer for small trout

[japhy0508]

Short tip, I didn't mean to offend....sorry if it came across that way. Was just trying to say that carrying competition lengths of line would be extremely unlikely to keep a 2" gap in loops. Shorten the cast dramatically and it might certainly be more attainable. Measure it, naw....with time at a premium working from home and acting as math/science tutor to our daughter, I don't have much time right now. All I can say is that based on what DrLogik has described, and my observations at the park or on water for that matter, when what I feel in my hand matches his description, a pretty tight loop is attained. In the end, I think we're deviating from addressing the original question. There have been many tidbits of info to glean from this thread, and let's collectively hope we can get back out there soon and find out what works for all of us....after all it's just fishing. Cheers.

[Short Tip]

Japhy, no worries at all, we're just talking here. I'm well aware that distance competition and casting in wind are different things, with one important similarity - The need to maximize efficiency and power. The same techniques apply. At any rate, I'm sure the 2" loop was just a bit of hyperbole, at any distance.

[japhy0508]

Haha.....fair enough.....maybe Gnome can provide a schooling....get you y'er seats please. Have a great day y'all.

[Loogie]

Standing by for the video, I want to see that 2" loop

[mer]

Going back through a bunch of my books, there are pictures in Ritz, Lefty's, Mel Kriegers works that do show very pointed loops with very small diameter at the point. I believe there are also pictures in Simon Gawesworth Spey Casting book showing very tight loops like that with a lot of line being carried in the air.

Are they 2 inch loops? Hard to say because I haven't tried to measure/scale them in the photos.
Are they the same diameter for the "whole" loop? No, of course not. They are very pointed loops and corresponding text that says the point being small is the important piece aerodynamically.

Can Jeff throw tight loops? I have not personally seen him cast, but if he says he can, I'll believe him. If you don't want to, that's fine, your choice.

Standard tennis balls are about 2.5 inch diameter (a little over and less than 2.75 inch). I've seen enough different people cast different types of rods (bamboo, graphite) to say "yes, there are probably people that can cast a flyline with the point of the loop about the diameter of a tennis ball".

Can everyone cast like that every time? No, some of us do it accidentally once in a blue moon, but I think people like Lefty and Mel can do it more often than not, on purpose. I know that no more than twice, accidentally, I've come close to a pointed loop bigger than a tennis ball, but smaller than a softball (basically a range of 2.5 to 4.5 inches).

[Short Tip]

You're there when you can throw a pointed 1-2" tall loop that has parallel lines top and bottom. And then you fear NO wind!!

(My bolding)

That's what was said. And when NewUtah gently asked whether feet were meant, rather than inches, we got:

Gnome,

Surely you must mean feet and not inches!

you gotta be kidding right? 2 INCHES or less pointed loops are extremely aerodynamic and efficient whereas a 2 foot loop is so far from aerodynamic it is not even comprehensible by this gnome. 2 foot tall loops are for the least experienced fly caster and they should learn not to throw them right away unless required. The tighter the loop the more efficient it is at cutting wind. Also helps develop more line speed due to less wind drag.

Which are statements I felt compelled to challenge. Yes, I'm sure Jeff is a good caster. I've never met him, but I have no reason to doubt. I'm also sure that I'm a reasonably good caster. And I've spent a lot of time around people better than me, some of the best. There's no 2" loop. A "pointed" loop? Sure, such as it is. A tight loop? Absolutely.

I think it's fair to challenge these strong assertions without everyone getting all bent out of shape. The video will tell, I suppose.

[LeeO]

Good grief

[DrLogik]

Good grief

+1

I've been on here a long time and this the first post of this type that I've ever made...

Does it really matter who casts what, how well they cast and their opinions on the matter? No!

I hate to say it, but it sounds like a few old hens haggling about the color of the new barn door.

My posts here have been tongue-in-cheek and playful. That's how it should be. To get wound up over a 2 foot loop or a 2 inch loop is frankly, silly.

[Gnome]

My apologies for getting back to this after a slight sojourn, sometimes life calls and we do what we need to instead of what we want to.

If a picture is worth a 1000 words here is a small novel for you to chew over and for anyone to say 1" loops do not exist. well these photos make my "POINT" look at the one photo of the backcast, that is a tight pointy wind cutting loop where most peoples cast falls apart.

Rod used for the demo is a mortised single piece Smithwick 5'6" taper Wulff Triangle taper 5wt, Thanks Tom!!!








In my opinion this back cast show an absolutely perfect loop!!!

and the above picture shows the point of the spear with a loop that is so tight it looks like a single piece of line, talk about a wind cutting cast!!
tight loops allow you to fight the wind whether it is into it or across it. High line speed tight loops and fear no wind
Edit; and blow up the above picture and at the point you can see a sliver of light between the two lines and that dimension is very small, definitely less than 2" for SURE!!and most likely less than 1". And you can see how tall it is in relationship to the horizontal 1x4 on the fence with the loop being less than 1/3rd of that 1 x4 which is 3/4"x3/5"

Have a gnomish day

just trying to help the original poster with thoughts about fishing in the wind shame on me. There is no magical one rod for that set of circumstances whereas practice and time with rod in hand counts for so much to make you a better angler. And I call BS when people say something is not possible when I know it fully is.

Photographs by RJ Soby Photography

[6tUc05]

I hate to be the "spoilsport"; but, these photos fail miserably at showing a measurable dimension to the loops. To take a photo that will definitely show the "depth" of a loop, one MUST take the photos from a 90 degree angle to the plane of the cast; NOT parallel to it as was done in these photos. The ONLY thing these photos show is some old guy casting a fly rod and a wooden fence! Talk about being "staged"!!

[Gnome]

staged? Absolutely and it equals out to just me out casting tight efficient wind cutting loops. sign up for the flat earth society line forms to the left;-)

Picture #3 is very close to being 90 degrees to the casting plane and it shows the pointed loop very well. And the only picture that is not close to the 90 degrees of the casting plane is the picture of me and a backcast, all others are close to the 90 degrees off of the casting plane.

and the old wooden fence gives you a size reference

[Arubey]

What Jeff is "pointing" out here, which goes back to the OP's question, is that practice which leads to throwing the tightest loop you can throw can go a long way towards helping you deal with wind.

BTW, I've spent a fair amount of time behind a camera, and this isn't the easiest shot to capture. There's quite a bit of information in these photos, of course what the line is doing, but also in your posture, in the recoil (or lack thereof) of the rod, etc. Thanks for the time and effort - nicely shot.

best,
Andy