Casting instructions - how consistent are they?

[ibookje]

There are often topics of members asking for help with their casting. Most recent one being this one. Getting in touch with a casting instructor is probably the best way to improve ones casting.

Due to the pandemic this is obviously not possible.
Most often we can watch Youtube where there are *tons* of casting instructions. Many of them are mediocre at best. There are some that has very good pointers, at least on the basic casting principles. Here's one that's from the late 1980's but nonetheless still applicable. It's a pretty easy going yet quite elaborate. It basically handles all the basic casting one needs to know.

My question is how consistent are (well meant) casting instructions? (both on and off the computer screen)

For instance in the video mentioned above. It's interesting to see how this couple (Terry & Wendy Gunn) have different casting styles. He has a more vertical and shoulder casting movement while his wife Wendy has a more side angled and elbow ('Lefty style') casting movement.

One casting style isn't better than the other* but one should know how to keep the casting instructions consistent and not mix them. This will confuse the student if what you're telling doesn't correspond with the casting movements you show.

Example of inconsistent instructions:
1) Here's a video I found on Youtube where the instructor shows how to make a basic casting movement that differs from when he's doing one-on-one instruction.





Look at his casting style: (almost) vertical casting stroke using his shoulder and (mainly) lower arm, all moving in one plane. Similar to how you move your arms when you run. This casting movement (a '2D' movement') is quite easy to get it, especially for beginners.


2) Later on, while helping a student he holds the student's hand and shows the casting movement. The instructor's casting movement is the same vertical casting style shown above while the student is 'forced' into the side arm casting stroke with his lower and upper arm to the side in a 90 degree position making casting movement very awkward. This position also puts lots of stress on the shoulder.

With both casting styles mixed up, I'm almost sure the student will be confused wondering what the casting movement the instructor is teaching...






By the way, this is the video where I got the screen shots. I love the setting in Patagonia and the instructor has great energy in his instructions.



* Casting styles is a whole different subject on its own. Different casting styles can be used depending on the type of fishing (for instance with weighted flies), conditions (wind) and/or target (under a branch).

For the basic casting in my opinion (I'm a FFF casting instructor since 1994) the shoulder casting movement is a lot easier to learn as the movement is '2D'. All the movement are moving in one plane, just like how you move your arms when you're running. The elbow casting movement is a much more complex '3D' movement as it involves your elbow, upper arm and your shoulder moving in different directions. Try the side arm elbow casting movement with your non casting arm and you know what I mean

[mer]

I was just reading back through Halford's The DryFly Mans Handbook; he has a very good section on casting a fly rod. Even with the time and equipment difference , the fundamentals are still the same. He also had some words of wisdom on selecting a teacher (I'm paraphrasing):
The most expert practitioner may not be the best teacher; sometimes it is better to find a moderately good one that can teach well.

Like finding a guide: the best guide may not be the "best" guide for everyone.

Mel Krieger The Essence of FlyCasting I think was one of the best books (I personally liked it better than Lefty's books) I like the "whump" descriptions.

Charles Ritz has a very good description on casting that still holds today in the fundamentals. He also advocated a "hands on" for a beginner, but I think the key is the instructor must move the student through the cast, not merely "do a cast while holding onto someone else". The difference is when moving the student through the cast the instructor is working the students biomechanics. The other, the instructor is going through his biomechanics and taking the student for a ride.


I also believe (my opinion) that modern graphite/unnatural material rods are designed to cast a line differently than the typical rod most members here use. "A graphite rod is designed to shoot a line, bamboo is designed to cast it" Not my original thought, read it somewhere, but based on my experience it's "truth".

Fundamentals are always going to be the same: from rest, accelerate, stop, pause, accelerate, stop. Specific rods let you accelerate faster and stop harder (I believe modern rods are more like previous generation casting tournament rods than fishing rods).

This has always had good information and videos.
https://www.sexyloops.com/

Apologies for getting too many words in, my problem is there is joy of fly fishing and then the science of fly fishing. The science appeals to one side of the brain, the joy of fly fishing soothes the soul.

[carlz]

A quick answer, not very.

As an IFFF Casting Instructor (CI) and casting geek, I teach monthly at our club's casting gathering. We have 5 casting instructors, 3 certified (of which one is preparing for his Master Casting Instrutor exam) all of whom and 2 who could certifiy against the current curriculum whenever they wanted. As a group, we should be fairly consistent, but each teaches differently.

The IFFF curriculum doesn't dictate technique for casting and provides rough guidelines for teaching. Each student is different and each teacher is different. The casting instructor certification groups are trying to standardize, but they are currently focused on making sure that the instructors have a basic understanding of teaching and fly casting.

I recommend only 3 youtube video series. Joan Wulf, Orvis, and Bumcast casts that catch fish (Carl McNeil). Orvis and McNeil teach off the IFFF curriculum and are very good at keeping to the parts of casting that are generic and keeping away from dictating things that are personal style. There are other good videos, but these three are the starting point. I like Mel Krieger's videos and Lefty's demonstrations, and they are a lot of fun to watch. However they come at casting from a different perspective that is sometimes hard for a student to get from point A to point B. However both Mel and Lefty are fun to watch and have nuggets of gold.

Too many of the Youtube videos are just OK, and have significant inconsistencies that can confuse a student, like those mentioned above.

The more a teacher teaches, the better they will be, so if you look at the instructors at the Joan Wulf school, or the Orvis school (which puts together the curriculm for the orvis flyfishing 101 classes), they have a lot more experience.

If people have videos that they like, I would like to hear about them and why they like them.

[DrLogik]

Of course whoever a person learns from they favor that method. For me that is Joan Wulff. I went through her casting school and a few years later her Instructor"s School. However, if you look at all of the truly great casters, not just guides but "casters", you will notice that most of them share the same basic mechanics.

In my opinion Joan Wulff has nearly perfect mechanics and control. Most of the world's top casters share those same mechanics. At the Fly Fishing Show they always have people who can cast a good fly but their mechanics can vary from A to Z as ibrookje stated.

I like Joan's mechanics because they are effortless and translate to any rod or casting situation and I can cast all day and not become fatigued.

[mer]

I like Joan's mechanics because they are effortless and translate to any rod or casting situation and I can cast all day and not become fatigued.

That is the key, I think. As I said I was reading back through Halford and this was one of the points he made: casting should be effortless (paraphrased). Easy to force something that puts a fly out, but doing it all day long?

[ted patlen]

Instructions should be delivered with the ability of the student(s) involved as well as the type of fly-rodding they will be involved with. Too many times I've seen highly accomplished casters showing technics and using vernacular better suited for other pupils as well as giving too much information during a short teaching period. Result, pupil confusion, often to a point where the "rookie" gives up.

[BambooNut]

When I was younger I tried to get on the golf tour. It's pretty tough and impossible without a sponsor. I gave it my best shot but in the end I couldn't get it done. To keep myself eating I used to give lessons. One of the most difficult challenges i've ever done. Some people have no sense of tempo, can't understand what they're being told, and have really low eye-hand coordination.

I'm guessing teaching someone to cast a fly rod is just as bad. Some people will pick it up fast. Others will never get it. Some can be self taught and have a perfect cast. Sam Snead was known for his smooth swing and he never had a lesson.

[Dave Dozer]

Hi, This is Mary Ann Dozer. I am Dave's wife. I too am going to join in on this casting thread. Like JL, I agree there is so much on casting in videos and books. It can get very confusing. The good think about COVID is that some of the certified casting instructors community have switched to remote coaching using Video Analysis Tools. If you are keen in learning more PM Dave. Next the Fly Fishers International Learning Center has a great section on Casting. https://flyfishersinternational.org/Edu ... er/Casting

[Brooks]

....... Result, pupil confusion, often to a point where the "rookie" gives up.

That can be a good thing. Some people just shouldn't flyfish (I opined very selfishly. . .).

[ibookje]

This is certainly what makes many instructions almost impossible to follow, let alone understand. Especially when information and execution is mismatched (this topic). Casting instructors, but also casting demonstrations at fly fishing shows, tend to make (and look!) casting too complicated. Too much information, too much focused on different aspects of casting etc.

I like to keep the information limited to a bare minimum. If someone wants more information, (s)he will ask for it and I can help. Foremost casting is fun and it should look like fun. That's that starting point and try to invite beginners and even intermediate casters to pick up that rod.

Too many times I've seen highly accomplished casters showing technics and using vernacular better suited for other pupils as well as giving too much information during a short teaching period.

[BambooNut]

One thing I never see instructors talk about is matching a rod to the persons natural tempo. Give a fast rod to someone with a slow tempo or the other way around and they'll always struggle.

[dublhaul]

First off, let me qualify myself - - - I make absolutely no claims to being a casting instructor. But over the years I have attended enough shows to see plenty of demos given by some well-known instructors (who were absolutely keen and accomplished anglers). Those who were most successful as instructors (in my opinion) were those who were enthusiastic, who kept the students relaxed, and who could impart the basics the most clearly and simply.

Lefty Kreh was a master at providing a positive learning experience, and it didn't matter if the student was a kid or prominent person. A group of us were in Mexico one year, and the manager of the hotel we were staying in one night recognized Lefty, told him he was an enthusiastic fly angler, and humbly asked Lefty if he would autograph one of Lefty's books he had recently bought. Lefty of course obliged with humor, one thing led to another, and we all adjourned to the hotel's swimming pool, where Lefty gave a quick lesson to the manager and his young daughter. Similarly, at one of Chuck Furimsky's shows, there was a young Boy Scout there in his uniform. Lefty pulled him out of a crowd of several hundred "watchers", told him he was an Eagle Scout, and gave him a quick lesson, along with a joke or two to ease the young man's anxiety to be "on display" in front of the crowd. Both of the youngsters were making fairly decent casts within a few minutes.

Short story long (with apologies), a light-hearted approach can work wonders with a nervous student. And some jokes can help with those who might need to lighten up themselves. Heard many, many times:

Lefty: "Did you watch your backcast?" Adult student: "No." Lefty: Neither would I if it looked like yours!" {with a laugh and slap on the back]

To the question about other instructors. How about Ed Jaworowski, and his book "The Cast", and DVD (with Lefty) "The Complete Cast"?

[ibookje]

I got Ed Jaworowski's book and I've watched the 'The Complete Cast' on Vimeo. Excellent references.

For a beginner, most if not all books on casting is a bit overwhelming. I've yet to run into a fly casting book that only has 10 pages. For a beginner that would be great, but commercially not possible. For starters you don't need a whole lot to know to start casting and fishing.

This topic is about consistency in casting instructions. This is basically the case with books on fly casting too. Ed Jaworoswki's book is solely based on the 'Lefty style' (side arm casting). The more vertical (traditional?) style of casting has in my view a shorter learning curve. One isn't better or worse than the other, it's a personal preference. Unfortunately no casting instructor has on his business card as being an advocate of traditional casting style or Lefty style

[thegubster]

Hi, This is Mary Ann Dozer. I am Dave's wife. I too am going to join in on this casting thread. Like JL, I agree there is so much on casting in videos and books. It can get very confusing. The good think about COVID is that some of the certified casting instructors community have switched to remote coaching using Video Analysis Tools. If you are keen in learning more PM Dave. Next the Fly Fishers International Learning Center has a great section on Casting. https://flyfishersinternational.org/Edu ... er/Casting

Minnesota....go to the link here shared by Mary Ann and study each and every casting vid and pay attention to the info described. It's (they're) wonderful!!

Fly casting, as has been mentioned, should be a joy to do, to see and to totally enjoy. I call it "poetry in motion" and enjoy the practice immensely.

Much of your questioning will be helped here. You just have to pay attention to the info shared here and then go out and practice/play/have fun in the learning. It will come, trust that as I've been through/am doing - much of what you're asking about.

The above mentioned video's are awesome and I can take much from them. I have some troubles myself and can't believe how danged stubborn my body is in refusing to change many poor habits but...in time they'll get better.

Keep it fun man, keep it fun. It's wonderful to see, that "poetry in motion"....

Jeremy.

[DUCKMANNM]

Despite what the FFI (formerly Federation of Fly Fishers) says about their Casting Instructor Certification program, it is just a way for them to drum up money. I've been teaching Fly Casting for 30 years without being a Certified Casting Instructor. I also used to teach the 2 day fly fishing schools/classes through Bob Marriott's Fly Fishing Store when I lived in California. Being a Casting Instructor is really similar to being a golf teaching pro. To get the perfect golf swing, you can't use the same set of teaching instructions and expect them to work for each golfer, just the same as every fly caster having/has different moves and abilities. You have to be able to teach fly casting by different methods for each student to end up doing what it takes for them to learn the casting techniques, to get a good loop in the fly line.

I've found that the toughest thing to teach beginners, is to get them to bend the rod when they cast, and let the rod do the work of moving the fly line. They can't seem to understand that they have to make the rod bend to get any line speed to keep from having an open, or a tailing loop in the fly line. Once they finally get it figured out, it is like someone finally turned on their light bulb(s).

I'll say this also. When you teach fly casting, you're focusing on the fundamentals of casting, and by doing so, it will also makes you a better caster!

[ted patlen]

I have been lucky to watch Lefty and Ed many times from small groups as well as the masses at shows. One of the disciplines they preached is that the tip-top of the rod needs to move in a straight line. If the caster just focuses upon that it doesn't matter at which plane the rod sweeps.

[DaveNJ]

Ted helped me a bit when I was refining my skills! Told me to cast in the middle of the night with my eyes closed to learn my load points. To this day I'll close my eyes sometimes when bonding with a new rod or line.

[Dave Dozer]

Despite what the FFI (formerly Federation of Fly Fishers) says about their Casting Instructor Certification program, it is just a way for them to drum up money. I've been teaching Fly Casting for 30 years without being a Certified Casting Instructor. I also used to teach the 2 day fly fishing schools/classes through Bob Marriott's Fly Fishing Store when I lived in California. Being a Casting Instructor is really similar to being a golf teaching pro. To get the perfect golf swing, you can't use the same set of teaching instructions and expect them to work for each golfer, just the same as every fly caster having/has different moves and abilities. You have to be able to teach fly casting by different methods for each student to end up doing what it takes for them to learn the casting techniques, to get a good loop in the fly line.

I've found that the toughest thing to teach beginners, is to get them to bend the rod when they cast, and let the rod do the work of moving the fly line. They can't seem to understand that they have to make the rod bend to get any line speed to keep from having an open, or a tailing loop in the fly line. Once they finally get it figured out, it is like someone finally turned on their light bulb(s).

I'll say this also. When you teach fly casting, you're focusing on the fundamentals of casting, and by doing so, it will also makes you a better caster!

Please, let's not berate the FFI Casting Instructor Certification Program by saying it "is just a way for them to drum up money"...nothing could be further from the truth. Duckmannm, you are certainly entitled to your opinion but lets please try to keep this conversation positive. The FFI program not only teaches individuals to become great castors, it also teaches them to be great teachers. And, it teaches a common language around fly casting that can help beginners to advanced level casters become better. There is also a great community where casting instructors can continue to learn and grow to help advance the art of fly casting. And finally, FFI has some great reference material and videos on their WEB site that are available to everyone for free.

Anyone can teach fly casting, but I've seen plenty of folks who teach casting who are not great teachers. I'm sure you're a great casting instructor, so please do not take this as I'm challenging your own skills and abilities to teach fly casting. I am not a certified casting instructor, but I know many who are. Yes, many of them charge for teaching private casting lessons...they should be entitled to charge money for their services. But, most also volunteer a great deal of their time for free to local fly fishing clubs and at fly fishing events, with no intention of charging for their volunteer time.

Dave Dozer

[JoeBolt]

I became enamored with Minnesota's original thread and the subsequent discussion and improvement listed here and elsewhere. I'm in an area with only 1 certified instructor, but I am looking to enroll in a Spring lesson or five. I would love to improve, and also to learn a bit more about how to teach my boys some basics. I don't want the instructor hugging me and forcing my arm to his... I guess being a true lefty is good insurance on that front. I can only only approach my right-handed boys from the elbow side, which seems exactly where I belong.

As a newb and geographically limited fly fisher, I've been largely self taught - to whit, my tailing loops and wind knots can attest. But there's something bothering me about casting "style", as if any good golfer or skier couldn't wipe the course with me if we both had to choose the same rental clubs or skis. Good casters must be highly adaptable, regardless of the equipment, Maker, taper, line wt, hollow build, etc.

I'm certain the answer is lots of repetition on the water...
But isn't a good caster's stroke simply adapting in real (reel) time? What has "cracked the code" for you? What are your essential tips for bamboo, if you may? Happy February!

[PYochim]

If these casting videos mention the baseless adage, “one doesn’t need to cast 50 feet to catch fish “ they lose me.