Finally videos for casting errors

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Sal Fontinalis
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#21

Post by Sal Fontinalis »

Minnesota, thanks for sharing. Don’t let perfection get in the way of good. Your cast will get you fishing!

One thing that helped me immensely when I was learning was to imagine holding a loaded paintbrush like a rod and trying to flick the paint off. The majority of your casting stroke is slower and smooth with more abrupt movements towards both ends of the stroke. The windshield/pie/pizza visual should be taken very generally. To the extreme, they suggest the rod tip would follow the outside arc (and drop) which it shouldn’t. The farther you try to cast, the more important it is to keep the tip up on both ends of the stroke to keep a tight loop.

In addition, parabolic rods like Summers’ rods can be challenging to master. In my experience, a light line will keep the action in the tip and make it easier to cast. As it loads into the butt however, with a heavier line or at long distances, you may notice a a different feeling as the rod flexes through mid-section of the taper. I have always had to remind myself to let the rod do the work and not try to adjust my casting stroke.

Best of luck! It’s a good time of year to be practicing on the lawn.

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ibookje
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#22

Post by ibookje »

Sal Fontinalis wrote:
12/22/20 00:21
The windshield/pie/pizza visual should be taken very generally. To the extreme, they suggest the rod tip would follow the outside arc (and drop) which it shouldn’t. The farther you try to cast, the more important it is to keep the tip up on both ends of the stroke to keep a tight loop.
Oh boy, I wished we didn't need to go in such depth, but some comments made are simply more confusing and not true...


1) The windshield as metaphor can actually be taken literally. The casting movement form one axis (can be the elbow or wrist or a combination of both) makes the rod tip change direction continuously during the whole movement causing a large loop that looses line speed (energy) excessively. That could be the objective (like casting a heavily weighted nymph/streamer/etc.), otherwise it's a very inefficient cast.


2) To explain the varying arc using a pie/pizza slice analogy is something everyone can understand.

A more precise way to explain is actually using letter types:

Short cast: \\/
Medium cast: \\\\/
Longer cast: \\\\\\/

\ is the loading of the rod (called translation) as you accelerated move the rod.
/ is rotating (hence called rotation), using a quick wrist snap to finalise the acceleration and stop of the rod tip. The 'dip' (or drop) at the end is essential to form the loop. Otherwise it will cause a tailing loop or line crashing the rod tip. Deeper the drop the larger the loop size.

The angle of both 'directions' also gets bigger (hence the metaphor of the pizza slice) as the distance you cast increases, but unfortunately we don't have different angled letter types :)

Here is a good video from Simon Gawesworth from Rio explaining the translation and rotation, especially the importance (contrary to what so many people tell) of using the wrist.


3) The path the rod tip traveling in a straight line is an adage used in fly casting instructions to prevent casters from 'windshield casting' rather than being a fact. To be more precise the path the rod tip does not make a straight line but resembles more of a mathematical parabolic function we learned from high school, but turned side ways.

Image

Here is an excellent picture from Per Brandin's site of John Napoli casting Per's Rod at the Long Beach Casting Club. Look at the path the rod tip travels. Certainly not a straight line path. See the sudden drop(!) which is basically the rotation as explained in point 2.
Image



4) (competition) Distance casting is a whole different game.
With distance casting the past 5-8 years we have seen a radical change in how to cast for distance.
It's called 170 degree casting (yes, from a novice' view it looks like 'windshield casting!).

I won't go into detail here as it doesn't really concern what we do here, but for who are interested I can recommend Paul Arden's explanation on the 170 degree casting style.

Bill Terry
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#23

Post by Bill Terry »

The analysis by ibookje has been spot on. Another source that helps explain casting is the fly casting manual on sexyloops: http://www.sexyloops.com/flycasting/index.shtml.
Ad piscatoribus sunt omnes res secundi.

davemaine
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#24

Post by davemaine »

You know, on the other hand, if the fly is getting out there, you're casting fine, especially for a beginner!

Have fun with it and don't turn it into a chore. No one learned to cast (or do anything else) really well in a day or two.

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ibookje
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#25

Post by ibookje »

Sure, sometimes we just geek out :rollin

Thank you Mary Ann for your comment! Looking forward to your thoughts on casting and fishing in general.

Thanks Bill!

Wanna talk about Orvis Seven/Fours? Come on over here. It's great fun!

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Flykuni3
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#26

Post by Flykuni3 »

John Napoli above is a pal of mine, and has been to several cast around, bbqs at my place in LA. I've watched him cast there up close, and at the Long Beach Casting Club where he fired long casts into the pond with great accuracy. He is quite an impressive man with a fly rod, especially with a rod he is comfy with, like a custom Brandin. But John's style is not one that all can do, or imitate well, and it may not be for the novice: John uses a tight, short stroke, and that tight motion looks very much to me like a man hammering a nail into a vertical wall. Up and down, wrist tight, torso rigid, most motion occurring near his right shoulder. His loop is candy cane-tight, and he can put a fly on a dime.

But I've seen other excellent casters of bamboo rods: Art Warner and Phil Snyder (sorry about your rose collection and fine dichondra, Phil); Nelson Ishiyama, Per Brandin, Dwight Lyons (his forward loop looks like it's unrolling on a flat table, and it's about 2"--4"); Chris Lucker, Gerald Ishikawa, Jz2/Jim Zeigler, Russ Gabel, Jim Solomon (certified guy), Mel Kreiger and Ernie Schweibert (at a pool at a hotel at a show in So Cal), Joe Bradley, John Geirach, John Shaner -- and guess what? we all cast differently. Yes, we may all stop on the back cast and wait to come forward to flex our rods during a cast, but we all do it slightly to moderately differently. Some stop abruptly, others gently; some use a tight arm, others don't; some break what seem to be standard rules, and their casts look fine. What they apparently all do is feel the rod.

The first expert caster I watched carefully in-person was the late, great Lefty Kreh. Looking back at what I saw and remember well, Lefty broke a lot of rules: he used a lot of arm, he cast like he was throwing a javelin, full arm extension forward and back, 9 to 3, and back. And damn but he had a beautiful, unrolling cast that seemed weightless in the air.
Last edited by Flykuni3 on 12/25/20 20:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Sal Fontinalis
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#27

Post by Sal Fontinalis »

Hmm, I didn’t realize metaphors could be taken literally but I’m not looking to cause a stir. Ibookje, we may be saying the same thing because your comments “causing a large loop that loses line speed” and “deeper the drop the larger the loop size” are exactly my point.

Minnesota, when you’re ready to cast an entire fly line to non-existent fish at distances that would make it near impossible to set a hook just so you can make it on the cover of Fly Flinger Distance Champion magazine, grab your high school math book and watch the video on 170 degree casting. Until then, I’d recommend keeping your casts short and your tip up.

carlz
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#28

Post by carlz »

Delete
Last edited by carlz on 12/25/20 17:00, edited 1 time in total.

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Tim Anderson
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#29

Post by Tim Anderson »

After looking closely at the Brandin-Napoli image ibookje posted, the attached picture shows a couple of things I think are worth noting for the cast illustrated. The gray line is the parabolic path shown in red in the original. I have added a smooth red line which joins the rod tip at various positions in the picture. Note that the tip follows a complex curve which pretty much defies simple description. Napoli's hand motion (in red and light blue) is more down than forward. This is a motion used by many in accuracy casting competitions and is easily seen in this video of Chris Korich making a 50-foot cast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfKpOJQDu9I.

Tim

Image

novisor12
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#30

Post by novisor12 »

Ibookje has very good advice.

As far as distance casting, being able to cast an entire fly line only makes you a better caster. Sometimes it seems like people knock it because they can't do it. I catch plenty of trout on dries 70' out and beyond (I mostly fish big water).

I have yet to see someone who can cast 100' who is not accurate inside of 50'.

I'm not going to give advice because others have given better advice than me. Although casting lessons are a good Idea, I'd guess that plenty here are self taught (including myself). However if you are posting videos i'd assume you're not adverse to lessons.

Once you have proper mechanics and understand them all types of casts become easier. Having an arsenal of presentation casts is much more important than being able to cast for distance, but both are obtained through proper mechanics and usually if you are good at distance you will be good at presentation and vice versa.

Minnesota
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Re: Finally videos for casting errors

#31

Post by Minnesota »

ibookje wrote:
12/21/20 04:43
Just made a short video on the various casting movements. Hope it shows the differences.

https://youtu.be/HMphU50vZMc

The push movement is prone to getting tailing loops as the rod tip doesn't move down enough to let the line travel forward. The top leg of the loop will likely crash into the lower leg of the loop or the rod tip as you can see.

I did take a video lesson and I now understand the shoulder and forearm movements, a pull rather than a push. I’m working on it to build muscle memory.

Thanks to all for your help. I will post a video when I have it mastered.

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