Is this a better casting motion?

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Loogie
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#2

Post by Loogie »

For short little casts yes that will work, when you want to reset a fly in a similar spot. With a larger fly or some tougher environmental or longer distance, it probably won't work as well. Remember you are trying to move the tip of that rod on a flat plane (or close to it) so in order to translate that movement from your arm, you need to move your whole arm aft to create a back cast and compensate for the aft movement by slightly shifting you arm up to create that back cast. Your knees are locked, so you are not balanced for movement. You need to unlock your knees and shift your stance a little more forward and aft. Good luck its looking good and you can certainly catch fish with your efforts!

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Flykuni3
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#3

Post by Flykuni3 »

Looks pretty good...as Loogie says, shift. Real fishing stances involve some bending, twisting effort. And if you are sneaking up on fish you may be casting from your knees, to half lying down. With sage brush around you, with wind, what a joy that is.

NewUtahCaneAngler
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#4

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

If you intend to fish with bamboo, you need to practice with that rod as the timing can be very different between bamboo and "plastic" and even among bamboo rods

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ibookje
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#5

Post by ibookje »

I'm impressed with the progress Richard!
I also see you give a slight (this is key!) wrist movement at the end of both the back cast and forward cast. This allows the rod tip to dip down a bit to form the loop (rather than the line crashing to the rod tip). Well done! This cast is okay for short casts upto around 15 ft.


Now lets tweak a bit for improvement:
1) Your forearm is doing all the work now. When casting longer line, the casting movement you're using now will turn into the wind shield movement (elbow as the rotating joint) as you need to widen the casting arc resulting in big inefficient loops (visible in one of the videos). Your shoulder joint is locked in your cast now.

Move (rotate) the shoulder to initiate the casting stroke (white arrowed line in the picture). Your elbow will go down and up as a result (blue arrowed line).

By using the shoulder (much stronger muscle than your arm), your forearm will be more a 'steering wheel' to control the size of the arc. Shorter the casting distance, narrower the arc. Longer the distance, larger the arc.

2) Try casting different distances (10ft -15 ft - 20ft) by starting with a small arc ('pizza slice') and increasing the arc in steps as you cast a longer line. The arc is the red arrowed line in the picture. With a short cast this arc can be half the size you see now.

Good luck!

Image

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ffftroutbum
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#6

Post by ffftroutbum »

I agree with ibookje, you need to get your shoulder more involved by raising and lowering your elbow. I am digging your smooth stroke. Looks like your hard work is paying off!

Here are a few suggestions you may find helpful. Hatch magazine has published many free casting articles by John Juracek. They are worth checking out. John is one of the finest casters I have ever seen. You can see his casting stroke here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oEtfIV1pOqk

Also, casting on the street can be hard on your line. I might suggest casting on the lawn or using an old line if you are not already doing so.

Good luck!

Minnesota
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#7

Post by Minnesota »

ffftroutbum wrote:
01/12/21 13:52
I agree with ibookje, you need to get your shoulder more involved by raising and lowering your elbow. I am digging your smooth stroke. Looks like your hard work is paying off!

Here are a few suggestions you may find helpful. Hatch magazine has published many free casting articles by John Juracek. They are worth checking out. John is one of the finest casters I have ever seen. You can see his casting stroke here:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oEtfIV1pOqk

Also, casting on the street can be hard on your line. I might suggest casting on the lawn or using an old line if you are not already doing so.

Good luck!

I agree, my elbow and therefore my shoulder need to be involved in the stroke. I will start working on that.

wb4tjh
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#8

Post by wb4tjh »

Pull up some of Lefy Kreh's casting lessons on YouTube. Lefty, as far as I'm concerned, is just about the final word on common sense fly casting. He really DID write the book on fly casting. I spemt some time with Lefty back in the 80s at the FFF conclave in MT. Home, Arkansas and it was very well worth my tme.

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ibookje
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Is this a better casting motion?

#9

Post by ibookje »

Lefty’s thoughts are great.
However his side arm casting style/technique (elbow on the shelf) is vastly different than the shoulder & arm movement (Joan Wulff uses this casting style) that in my view you shouldn’t mix both methods. At least not until one is an intermediate caster and understand the similarities and differences.

This is basically the whole 'problem' with all those 'instructions' on Youtube and other media. It's like teaching writing left handed while the viewer is right handed (or the other way around). From a distance it looks like the same but the technique is different.

I wrote a post about this inconsistency in casting instructions on my blog:
http://bassbug.blogspot.com/2020/02/inc ... ction.html

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Tim Anderson
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#10

Post by Tim Anderson »

I agree with ibookje that mixing Lefty Kreh's casting style with other styles is a step that shouldn't be taken too lightly. What you are showing in your videos is more the Joan Wolf style and/or the style used by many accuracy casting competitors. I have taken the liberty of juxtaposing images from one of your videos with a couple from a video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfKpOJQDu9I) of Chris Korich (an accuracy casting champion) making a 50 foot cast. The comparison is below. As others have pointed out, Chris's arm shows more rotation at the shoulder and you can see that his elbow drops down much further than yours when he completes the cast. Chris casts left-handed in the video, so I have flipped the images to help the comparison.

Tim

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Minnesota
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#11

Post by Minnesota »

Yes, agree, but what will those differences mean for my cast? I am making a 25-30’ cast.

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RWHoffhines
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#12

Post by RWHoffhines »

I would like to see what the line is doing, (maybe it's in the 2nd link) but it looks like a good basic stroke to me. There are all sorts of variations from your basic stroke that you learn by feel. I think I drop my elbow a little more. A lot of it has to do with our own variations in anatomy and our wiring. The biggest obstacle is getting rid of the baitcasters slam. My friend and tournament caster Brian Ramsey has helped me a lot by just watching him, but I can't find his YouTube page. What he does with vintage Fenwick glass is simply beautiful.

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DireWolf53
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#13

Post by DireWolf53 »

Minnesota wrote:
01/16/21 18:28
Yes, agree, but what will those differences mean for my cast? I am making a 25-30’ cast.
The mechanics of Chris's 50 foot cast translates directly to what you are trying to accomplish. Things just happen a bit quicker with a shorter cast.
"I am not against golf, since I cannot but suspect it keeps armies of the unworthy from discovering trout." - Paul O'Neil

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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#14

Post by Minnesota »

RWHoffhines wrote:
01/16/21 18:41
I would like to see what the line is doing, (maybe it's in the 2nd link) but it looks like a good basic stroke to me. There are all sorts of variations from your basic stroke that you learn by feel. I think I drop my elbow a little more. A lot of it has to do with our own variations in anatomy and our wiring.
The line straightening out nicely and the fly (a wad yarn) is falling softly.

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DireWolf53
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#15

Post by DireWolf53 »

I just noticed that you live in the SF Bay Area. You really should take advantage of the fact that you live a stone's throw from two of the best angling clubs in the US. This is especially true when it comes to fly casting. Even if you are not inclined to take some casting lessons just going to the ponds and watching the many accomplished members cast is a lesson all in itself.
https://www.oaklandcastingclub.org/
https://www.ggacc.org/

Others would give their eye tooth to have such a wealth of resources in their back yard.
"I am not against golf, since I cannot but suspect it keeps armies of the unworthy from discovering trout." - Paul O'Neil

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ibookje
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#16

Post by ibookje »

Minnesota wrote:
01/16/21 18:28
Yes, agree, but what will those differences mean for my cast? I am making a 25-30’ cast.
Your forearm only movement is still a wind shield movement. Meaning the loop will stay large so a bit of wind and you'll be in trouble with accuracy (imagine the frustration that will give?). A smaller/tighter loop will result in better accuracy and here's the nice part: you will use less energy/power to get the fly line going. Every one likes better 'milage per gallon' right?

Richard, you've made so much progress and put so much effort into it so far. Why not that final little shoulder movement into your casting stroke and you're ready to take off and enjoy your nice casting the rest of your fishing career? :)

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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#17

Post by Minnesota »

ibookje wrote:
01/17/21 09:59
Minnesota wrote:
01/16/21 18:28
Yes, agree, but what will those differences mean for my cast? I am making a 25-30’ cast.
Your forearm only movement is still a wind shield movement. Meaning the loop will stay large so a bit of wind and you'll be in trouble with accuracy (imagine the frustration that will give?). A smaller/tighter loop will result in better accuracy and here's the nice part: you will use less energy/power to get the fly line going. Every one likes better 'milage per gallon' right?

Richard, you've made so much progress and put so much effort into it so far. Why not that final little shoulder movement into your casting stroke and you're ready to take off and enjoy your nice casting the rest of your fishing career? :)
Is this more of what you are suggesting?

https://www.flickr.com/gp/147229514@N08/a8N95W

Regards,
Richard Goldberg

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ibookje
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#18

Post by ibookje »

No, your arm is now moving outside away from your body. This will really mess up your loops.
Go back to your last video. And look carefully at the picture I made from your video. Try to move your shoulder making your arms swing, just like when you (used to) run.

Hold your arms relaxed next to your body and rotate your shoulder to get you elbow go up and down. Ask your wife/son/friend for help and show you what I write here.

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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#19

Post by Minnesota »


16pmd
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Re: Is this a better casting motion?

#20

Post by 16pmd »

Take another look at the video Tim Anderson sent the link for. I think you'll notice that his elbow goes in much more of an up-and-down motion rather than the forward-and-back motion of your elbow. I think a trip to the GGACC ponds, as suggested, would be far more helpful than all the words here, mine included.

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