Size of loop in silk line

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ThomasB
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Size of loop in silk line

#1

Post by ThomasB »

I've been reading everything I can find, about connecting furled leader to silk line and silk line to backing. I'm restoring an old level silk line that was on a 1958 Pflueger Medalist reel I bought a few years ago. All old finish is stripped and I am about to make loops, before refinishing the line. I don't know what weight the line is, not sure how to determine that or if it even matters. I'm good with the wipping process but have not been able to find anywhere what size loop is made. I have two new, uni-thread furled leaders with loops that are about 1/2" long, when open, of course longer if you pinch loop together. Some people have written that the smaller the loop the better, but never say how small! I have never fished with silk so have no experience. I can only assume that a smaller loop will travel through guides easier than a longer loop, but if both loops are the same size does that make it more balanced for running through guides? No matter how long the loop, the bend should always be the same size and I'm wondering if with a long loop the whole thing is more flexible, thus passing through guides better? I can only assume, again, that the guy who made the furled leaders with a 1/2" loop knows what he's doing, and that that size is good, which makes me believe I should make the loop in the line the samesize. Now as I write this and think about it, I almost always pull my line off the reel with my left hand, well past the leader/line connection before I start casting, so I never cast with the leader/line connection still on the rod, maybe I'm way over thinking this!! Thanks to all.

6tUc05
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#2

Post by 6tUc05 »

As I have been making (for my own use) furled leaders for about 15 years now, and have put loops in numerous fly lines to accommodate them, my response is that a loop no more than 1/4" long is needed on the line. Remember, you slide THE END OF THE LINE THROUGH THE LOOP OF THE LEADER AND THEN PULL THE TIPPET THROUGH THE LOOP ON THE LINE to effect the connection. The "question" then becomes HOW BIG OF A LOOP DO I NEED ON THE LINE TO PULL THE LEADER THROUGH? Therein lies your answer. This applies to both silk and "plastic" lines.

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Wild Skies
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#3

Post by Wild Skies »

I've got two Phoenix DT silk lines. One is a DT1 that has 1/4" loops tied in each end and a DT4 that has 3/8" loops in each end. I don't notice a difference in one from the other in how they slip through the guides or how they turnover. Both perform just fine. The backing loop I have tied is larger to accommodate slipping the reel through when removing the line to store in the off-season or to switch to using the other end of the line.
Wild Skies
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ThomasB
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#4

Post by ThomasB »

Great, thanks 6tUc05 and wild skies for the advise. I'm one step closer to casting the silk. One more question to anybody. I don't have Pliobond glue to seal the wrap but I do have E6000, would that work or should I get the Pliobond? Thanks to all again.

60InchDV8
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#5

Post by 60InchDV8 »

Enclosed is a photo of a newly purchased 8 wt TT line with a braided furled silk leader attached. These spliced loops are all small, approx. a 1/4 to a 1/3 of an inch. When worn or at the end of the season, I replace them, spliced with the same size loop which easily flows through my rods guides with a running Springer. Prior to splicing, I clean a six inch section above the end of the silk line and remove any to free the silk strands.
To changeup while fishing or to remove the silk line for storage, I use a six inch long perfection loop, tied on the backing or mono running line for use with a silk Scandi salmon shooting head.
Regards from the Restigouche...Jim

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ThomasB
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#6

Post by ThomasB »

Thanks Jim. That's quite a reel in those pictures! I take it that guide travels along those bars for winding the line, I love that old stuff, it's a beauty Oh what do you think about the E6000 glue on wraps?

6tUc05
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#7

Post by 6tUc05 »

Thomas B...

As I usually use size A fly tying thread to "whip" my loops, I often simply apply head cement. It dries fast, and will yield a smooth finish to the wraps, and provides some abrasion protection. Sally Hansen's HARD AS NAILS fingernail polish also works quite well. After all, "this ain't rocket science.The objective is to put a flexible coating over the thread that will give a smooth surface and provide some resistance to abrasion.

60InchDV8
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#8

Post by 60InchDV8 »

Yes any good water proof glue would secure the splice and streamline the binding forming the loop.
This 1920 era 3 1/2 inch salmon reel by Eggington Merton has some unique features. The red agate rotating line guide with a sliding level wind prevents the line from bunching up on one side of the spool during a duel and possibly tangling when the salmon decides to run.

bluesjay
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#9

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, I cut the loop off of a braided leader and 'handcuff' and glue it on.

Jay Edwards

ThomasB
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#10

Post by ThomasB »

Like they say "Knowledge is like manure, it's only good when spread around!!! Thanks to all of you with so much knowledge!

6tUc05
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#11

Post by 6tUc05 »

One thing that you can do to give a neater, and smoother, junction of the line tip to the line before "whipping" is to CAREFULLY shave a very slight taper to the very tip end of the line. This will eliminate a "possible" bump at the junction of the tip to the line body as the "angled" junction makes for a smoother union of the two. A double-edge razor blade or scalpel blade will work for making the cut. The ease or difficulty in making the cut is a function of both the line tip diameter and it's stiffness. Works quite well on "plastic" lines

perfesser
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#12

Post by perfesser »

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Last edited by perfesser on 01/26/21 18:22, edited 1 time in total.

ThomasB
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#13

Post by ThomasB »

perfesser, yes it is a wonderful form for sure. The line I'm restoring is a level line as I mentioned, but I have know idea the weight. Is there a way to determine what the weight of my line is? I have two Montague bamboo rods, one a Rapidan from mid 30's, the other a Splitswitch, from1940 I believe. Using method from Dave Dozer on his site Bamboo Pursuits, I determined the Rapidan as a 5wt. I have not done the Splitswitch yet because I'm in the process of varnishing it. I'm hoping the level line I have will work with either of these rods. What's the down side if the line is lighter than the wt. of the rod? I'm thinking it will work better than if the line is heavier than the wt. of the rod?

perfesser
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#14

Post by perfesser »

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Last edited by perfesser on 01/26/21 18:21, edited 1 time in total.

ThomasB
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#15

Post by ThomasB »

perfesser, Thanks so much. I guess we will see what happens, once I start using the line, just how it works. I tend to fish pretty small brooks and rarely cast any great distance. I often wondered why weights were not on the old bamboo's like they are on new rods, but what you say makes sense. I will weigh the line, with no finish now and add as you say 30%. I'll weigh it after I finish too, just to see if there is much of a difference. I guess in the end it's just a matter of finding what works for you. What someone may have a hard time with, someone else will find works great. Just got to get out there and fish with it. Thanks for the great information.

perfesser
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#16

Post by perfesser »

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Last edited by perfesser on 01/26/21 18:21, edited 1 time in total.

ThomasB
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#17

Post by ThomasB »

Thanks, good to know.

6tUc05
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#18

Post by 6tUc05 »

perfesser...

The OP "inferred" that he plans to use "furled leaders". As someone who has been making and using furled leaders for at least 15 years, I can assure you that they come with a loop on each end. Some would argue that some come with a small ring on the tip end. This is true; BUT, a "loop" has to be created at the tippet end to be able to attach the ring. These loops are a "product" of the way furled leaders are made. (There are two ways to attach the ring; 1) by sliding the ring down one leg prior to furling; and, 2) by doing the "loop-to-loop" connection, or "handclasp knot".) Given that there is a loop on the butt end of the leader, why bother with a nail knot, or some other means of connecting to the line other than a loop at the end of the line? I use furled leaders on all of my lines, both silk and plastic, and absolutely have no problems with the loop-to-loop junction freely sliding through the tips on my rods. If you have this problem, I suspect that you are not correctly pulling the two together. Believe it or not, there is both a "right" way and a "wrong" way to make a loop-to-loop connection. The "wrong" way does result in a bulkier junction, and, when used to attach the ring to the tippet end, which is unavoidable due to the configuration of the ring, is known as the "handclasp" knot. The "wrong" way permits the "crown"(top) of the leader loop to "slip" down and around itself and onto the "standing" part of the leader as it is pulled tight to the line loop. On small diameter, and '"soft" lines and with leaders with small butt loops, this CAN be tricky at times. The "right" way is to PREVENT the "crown" of the leader from looping back over itself, i.e., keeping it straight along the side of the end of the line. It is definitely much easier to properly make the connection than it is to try to describe how to do it! Perhaps, if you try to make a "loop-to-loop" connection between two pieces of 50# monofilament, each with a loop on one end, you will get the picture.

Cheers!

ThomasB
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#19

Post by ThomasB »

6tUc05,
I'm using furled leaders with a 1/2" loop on butt end and a tippet ring on the other. I have never used furled leaders so I'm glad of all the input. I wipped a 1/4" loop in the end of my silk line, prior to finishing the line with BLO, etc, etc. My understanding of attaching leader to line is to basically put leader loop through the line loop and then take small end of leader with ring and pass it through butt end loop of leader. The two loops should be intertwinded like in the YES picture, not as shown in the NO picture. Am I correct?


Image

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6tUc05
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Re: Size of loop in silk line

#20

Post by 6tUc05 »

You Nailed it! The top configuration is the so-called "handclasp knot". Your top photo clearly shows the increase in size of the connection, as mentioned in my previous post. This is "designed" to create tip hangup problems. Thanks for providing excellent examples of what I was trying to describe!

Cheers!!

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