Revisiting casting into the wind - take Gnome's advice

[NewUtahCaneAngler]

Hi All:

I was reminded of this post by Gnome:

"So far it has mostly been about the rods when you should;

Learn to throw a tight (2" or less) pointed loop and then fear no wind!! Tight pointed loops are very aerodynamic and cut the wind, do this with a 2-4 wt and you have less resistance due to line size which means it will cut through the wind better than a larger line size. IMHO

Big fat lines and wide loops are the bane of anglers fishing in the wind. Tighten your loops up first and foremost to fight the wind.

a Torzite guided rod does not hurt either!! Less friction equals more line speed and tied with a sharp pointy loop increases your efficiency in fighting the wind.

It comes down to the one on the end of the rod and their acquired skills fighting the wind. Throw a very tight loop with a point and fear no wind.

The tightest loops come from walking the edge of disaster in a cast, this is acheived by being right on the edge of throwing a tailing loop, 80 or 85 degrees in the cast instead of 90 degrees(10:30 and 1:30 instead of ten and two). shorten the stroke and your loop gets tighter and when you throw a short enough stroke and you tail you have went to far in tightening up your casting stroke, open up slightly from that point and you will be throwing pointed loops that are extremely efficient and aerodynamic.

a couple of copper pieces from the heretic gnome,

Time spent practicing is priceless when you translate that time to the water.

You're there when you can throw a pointed 1-2" tall loop that has parallel lines top and bottom. And then you fear NO wind!!"

While reading Hewitt's A Handbook of Fly Fishing, published in 1933. On pages 69 & 70, Hewitt discusses using tight loops and even standing round guides (likely would have mentioned torzite had it been common on fishing rods at that time) instead of snake guides to cut down on resistance to cast and shoot line farther into the the wind.

Sadly the original thread was locked, otherwise I would have bumped it. Kudos to Jeff for reiterating this sage advice nearly 9 decades later. Personally, its time for me to spend more time practicing my casting to get tighter loops.

Tight lines and tight loops,
Joe

[mer]

Yep, a lot of times wisdom is ageless.
Fly fishing in saltwater: almost guaranteed to be be windy, so one has to learn to deal with it.
I don't recall where I read/saw/found it, but it was "cast an L" with the line. Exaggerated rod movement,
hard stop, the line looked like an L traveling. Weird, but actually worked (I think better with stiffer graphite rods).
Effectively giving a pointed "loop".

Practice is definitely a good thing.

[BigTJ]

A silk line will also give you a leg up they cut through the wind far better than plastic.

John

[mer]

A silk line will also give you a leg up they cut through the wind far better than plastic.

John

I was thinking much the same; a sinking line is pretty similar with the thinner diameter for the weight.

[Chuck441]

1" loop? That seems a guarantee for tangles- remember, it's casting in wind. And Wind can be unpredictable at times. Tight loops- of course. 1-2"? Please post a video. Just MO.

Chuck

[NewUtahCaneAngler]

Hey Chuck,

You should search for the original thread on this subject if you'd like proof. Hewwitt suggested a 6" loop.

Cheers,
Joe

[BigTJ]

Gnome’s loops are damn tight but I tend to agree, a really tight loop is more like 4-6” and somewhat collapsing i.e. not totally open. The rod tip has to travel an oval-shaped path to keep the line from tangling. It’s again easier to get tight loops with silk because the line is denser and more supple - has close to zero memory unlike plastic lines which start stiff and stiffen with age silk gets more supple with age. It just handles so much better all around.

John

[Chuck441]

Hey Chuck,

You should search for the original thread on this subject if you'd like proof. Hewwitt suggested a 6" loop.

Cheers,
Joe

I know- I was just responding to the post that said a 1-2" loop was ideal. Personally, I've never seen a caster throw a true 1" loop.

Chuck

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, At Lyons, the first two words I ever said to Jeff was, "Nice loop."

Jay Edwards

[Capt. Frank]

The motion the rod travels through, is not the casting stroke, as some believe, it is the casting arc. The narrower the arc, the tighter the loop, and vice versa. 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock will produce the best loop size, this can vary a little caster to caster, as each caster's perception of 11 and 1 o'clock can be different. The casting stroke, is the forward and back motion of one's hand. The longer the stroke, the longer you pull on the line with the rod, which bends, or loads the rod more, resulting in a more powerful cast. Longer cast, longer casting stroke.

[Brian K. Shaffer]

Joe - thanks for sharing this! The same Hewitt book just landed in my mailbox last week,
it's even better than I thought. Have you any of the others ?

I heed his advice on a routine basis. Lucky me gets the Gnome on the horn every three days.

Standing ring guides allow for less friction from the fly line.
Intermediate wraps prevent rods from further damage.

Just yesterday, he challenged me to a 'technique' grand slam.
Catch a fish in one outing on every available fly fishing technique.
Top to bottom... excellent plans ideal for today.

Side note - bluesjay : upon meeting you at the Colorado gathering, if you recall I uttered to you " I like your stroke. "

[Bill Terry]

What Gnome et al. say about loops is correct. But what he says about line size is wrong.

Yes, a thinner line has less air resistance. The aerodynamic drag on the loop is proportional to the frontal area of the loop, i.e., its diameter times its length. A tighter loop has a shorter length, so the air resistance is less.

But Newton's Second Law of Motion states that the rate of change of an object's momentum is equal to the net force on the object. The momentum of the loop is proportional to its mass, which is the line's density times the loop's volume. The loop's volume is proportional to its length times the SQUARE of its diameter. As the line diameter increases, the drag force increases in proportion to the diameter, but the momentum that the drag force is trying to reduce increases faster, as the square of the diameter. So drag has a harder time slowing the heavier iine down.

One of the logical arguments that I like is called Reductio ad Absurdam. Take your claim to an extreme limit and see how that works out. Okay, so a very good caster can cast a whole fly line without a rod. Try casting 10 feet of 7X leader without a rod, or probably even with a rod.

Note that the comparison above assumes that the line density remains the same as the diameter is increased. What BigTJ says about silk is right. Because silk is denser, you cram the same mass into a smaller volume for a given line weight rating, so you win both by reducing drag and by not reducing mass.

[rsagebrush]

FM Halford also discusses casting in the wind with an 'Underhand Cast' or using 'Downward Cut' and they seem to work okay in the wind too, although I generally prefer to tighten up my loop and casting arc.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, Brian, thank you,but I ain't in Jeff's class by a long shot.

Jay Edwards

[steeliefool]

"a 'technique' grand slam.
Catch a fish in one outing on every available fly fishing technique.
Top to bottom..."
How many fishing techniques we talking here ? Dry fly, dry fly/dropper, wet fly/soft hackles, streamer, nymph-suspended/on the bottom/indicator and other variations. A whole lotta fishing in a day not to mention appropriate tackle to shlep.
Good luck with that!

[Brooks]

>>"The narrower the arc, the tighter the loop, and vice versa. 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock will produce the best loop size"<<

Yes, but remember, it is where you apply power and the stop, that determines the loop size. You can fade back to 9 o'clock as an example, but still throw a tight loop--* if *you do your stop at 11, and then fade and let the line go back, then coming forward, apply power at 11 and stop the forward cast at 1 and then drop ("stop and drop").

A good way to practice this is on a lawn, casting sidearm where you can watch your loop fore and aft, in front and behind you, and as you get the loop the way you want it, bring it up to where you want it for fishing.

You have to be able to fade back, IMO, to cast long distance. I've watched people try and stop at 11 on longer casts, which invariably causes "creep", which messes up the tango.

If you double-haul, a good trick that works for some for tightening the loop, is too emphasize hauling harder, but casting easier. It's a way of tricking your brain into tightening up the power stroke arc. Sometimes the magic works, sometimes it doesn't.

And if you're going on a salt trip, try practicing casting your tight loops on a lawn while standing feet together on a little 12" high foot stool. It will help keep you from swaying all over the place, rocking the boat, and pissing of your flats boat guide, as he tries to pole and stay on his poling platform.

[Capt. Frank]

The easiest way to control loop size, is through the casting arc, 11 and 1 o'clock, versus 10 and two. The longer the casting stroke, the more you bend the rod (load), the more power is generated. The arc the rod goes through, is not the casting stroke, the forward and backward movement of the hand, is the stroke. Timing can also effect the power of the cast, from the back cast, start the forward cast just before the back cast straightens. When you wait to see the line straighten, the line stops pulling on the line, and the rod straightens. Thus the pre-load generated during the back cast by the line pulling on the rod is lost. The pre-load, combined with the loading of the forward cast will give more load to the rod, more power and line speed, this and a smaller loop, equals more distance.

[mlarocco]

and line speed

One reason why most people choose fast action graphite for salt water flats fishing. Easier for the average caster to generate line speed.

As far as tangling, I met a trout bum this year on one of the Cascade Lakes that while throwing 95% of his 6 wt he was turning over a 20'+ leader (vintage 90's Sage). Some people are really good casters, the rest of us do our best. I find a tight loop easier to throw with a single fly. Add an indicator and a second fly and the loop is going to be more open. If the wind is blowing I might adjust my casting angle to compensate for my casting deficiencies.