Leaders

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tdonnelly
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Leaders

#1

Post by tdonnelly »

I just started tying leaders following some of Art Lee's formulas using a Maxima leader kit. I recently ran across A.K. Best formulas I'd like to try, some of which call for .021 and .019. I can't find any Maxima of this size but have found some Frog hair. Is it a problem to use the Frog Hair with Maxima? I really don't want to invest in an entire Frog Hair leader kit. I also noted that A.K. says not to drop more than .002 in the butt section, while Art Lee drops .003 in some cases (i.e..020 -.017.)
Thanks for helping out a beginner.
Tom

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DrLogik
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Re: Leaders

#2

Post by DrLogik »

It shouldn't be a problem. We're only catching fish. I "generally" try to use the same brand for my entire leader but I like some brands heavier mono and other brands tippet. My tippet never matches the brand of butt and mid. My go-to butt and mid has been Maxima. My tippet has been Frog Hair or Orvis.

As far as formula and drops, there's different schools of thought there. Me? I generally follow to two mikes right out of the gate but I keep messing with a leader until I get it doing what I need it to do...regardless of the formula or drop.

For instance I have a long 16' leader that I use on a regional tailrace fishery that has big water when generating. It's always windy too. I built my "Wind Cutter" with a 70/30 formula not the typical 60/40 formula. The top butt section is .021 and I step three sections down in 2 mike increments and the last section 3 mikes and then tippet section. It cuts the wind like a knife and lands fairly softly too.

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BigTJ
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Re: Leaders

#3

Post by BigTJ »

Yiu can get by with frog hair but it’s not as stiff as maxima chameleon. You can get those larger diameters pretty inexpensively online from many different sources. 0.019 is 25 lb and 0.021 is 30 lb. the mic out probably 0.001 more but they are more or less the same.

Personally I would use any heavier than 20 lb for trout leader butts for fishing dries or dropper dry but that’s a personal preference. Exception would be for streamers or really big dries. Spey rods I use 40 lb butts.

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Chuck441
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Re: Leaders

#4

Post by Chuck441 »

FYI- Maxima is an excellent leader material. But regular users learn early that the marked diameter is usually off by .001 to.002. Doesn't matter that much in the butt section, but it might as you progress toward the tippet.

Chuck

billems
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Re: Leaders

#5

Post by billems »

AK Best is the most anal retentive dude in fly fishing. But he's right about Maxima. He insists you use a micrometer to measure out the diameter of each of the spools. When he states .019, it's the Maxima with .017 on the label. And so forth. I bought a micrometer when I read his article in the Bamboo Fly Rod magazine. But micrometers on tippet material...how much pressure do you apply? It was confusing. So, for his formula, I just start with '017 and go down until the 5x (which is always around 4x in reality). To that, I add a 5x tippet of soft nylon. Or else a tippet ring, where I tie the tippet onto it.

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carl otto
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Re: Leaders

#6

Post by carl otto »

You want to get the Maxima Chameleon material for the butt section as noted above.

40 years ago I started tying leaders and began with the Art Lee formulas. DON'T! there are just as good if not better, less complicated formulas to work from. The George Harvey concept is a start, then read Gary Borger on leaders. All of the sudden you are tying leaders 7 to 12 feet in length only using four sections of leader material, plus your tippet. This is for dry fly and streamer work. No need to buy some "kit" with 10 different leader thickness to get scrambled and lost over time. Plus with only four sections one can easily remember the leader formula. If you use the Maxima down to your 2X or 3X section then you use the Frog Hair, Trout Hunter or what ever to the end and viola you always know where the darker 2/3X is as you will inevitably have to rebuild a leader in stream.

Some gray haired experiential help to consider.

Carl @ Wanigas Rod Company

Oxbow
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Re: Leaders

#7

Post by Oxbow »

Good info you provided Carl. Simple is better!!!

ted patlen
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Re: Leaders

#8

Post by ted patlen »

Like many I've been making leaders or adapting them but never did I change leaders according to the day. By change I mean taken off and replace it for a different situation or fly. I have always just cut back on tippet sections or added to them. It's a highly personal thing. One of the annoyances I 've encountered with a mono butt section is that it starts to curl after a few times, so I started using a braided or curled butt and have just about eliminated that problem. Like Doc Logic I don't think the different tippets matter...just preference.

Booman2
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Re: Leaders

#9

Post by Booman2 »

I have always tied my leaders and use Maxima for everything except the last 1 or 2 sections. I started with salmon/steelhead leaders on #9-10 lines in California and Kodiak, Alaska in the 1970's. All my trout leaders are Maxima formulas as well. Parts of some of them are probably 10 years old. The beauty of tying your own is that you can easily tune them to do exactly what you desire. Just cut out a section and replace it with a slightly longer or shorter length and go from there. As previously said, don't buy a "kit" and always use a micrometer. Measurements between #12,10 and 8 are sometimes interesting. I always use all 3 but sometimes not sure why except that it works.
A good start is to mic the end of the line and start with a Maxima section about 2/3 of that diameter. Normally, this will be something like #20. I use about 36" of that and them step down to #6 or #4 before tying in tippet. I make the Maxima to tippet material connection at equal diameters or sometimes even .001 up.

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LeeO
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Re: Leaders

#10

Post by LeeO »

I have tied my own for quite a while. I use Maxima but also like Rio. I have had difficulty in finding butt material in fly shops
Lee Orr
304 Rod Company

http://www.304rodcompany.com

snorider
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Re: Leaders

#11

Post by snorider »

Or you can just buy a furled leader, and never give this all another thought. Simple!
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it. T.R.

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DrLogik
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Re: Leaders

#12

Post by DrLogik »

I found it!

I knew I had this page of Kaufmann's Streamborn leader formulas somewhere, and finally found it. This is circa 1993 when my father and I went out to the school on the Deschuttes River. Back then, John Hazel was the lead instructor and Dec Hogan was the second. If you know about western guides, these guys are at the top of their game.

Anyway, they handed these sheets out and the formulas are pretty darn good although I follow formulas that I evolved from from a 70/30 ratio rather than the typical 60/40 ratio.

Here's a link to a PDF file on my website if you want to download it:
http://www.drlogik.com/images/kaufman_l ... rmulas.pdf

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billems
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Re: Leaders

#13

Post by billems »

For dry fly fishing I still like the Harvey/Humphreys "slack" leaders. 60/20/20 leaders are perfect for nymphing, wet flies and streamers. But you want a leader that will kick into controlled s-curves with slack in the tippet. The second you straighten out a leader in fishing dries, you have instant drag--whether you can see it or not. You deliver the cast with a "stop and drop" cast. The Harvey formula, with the thinner but section will send the coils back near the butt section of the leader, affording you more time to avoid drag. Joe Humphreys "Trout Tactics" book has a great chapter on using this formula.

Eddie Southgate
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Re: Leaders

#14

Post by Eddie Southgate »

I'm in the carl otto and billems school .I generally use the Harvey formula except with gut . Most of my gut leaders are tied in 4 sections and then a tippet added to suit the fly I'm fishing . I don't have enough sizes of gut to do the tapers calling for more than 5 or 6 sizes of gut . Never had any trouble casting them and they fish great .
Wore out old rod junkie , WILL WORK FOR RODS .

billems
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Re: Leaders

#15

Post by billems »

You first poster mentioned Art Lee's leaders. Those are good formulas, as long as you own a factory were people can tie them for you. Each tippet gradation calls for an entirely different formula. And some of those tapers near the tippets are two inches between knots. I learned a lot from Lee's dry fly book, which made a lot of hatch master guys angry. But I learned my knots from it. The illustrations are terrific. Quite the eccentric guy, he was. He'd use words like "nay" for no, and called those with what he deemed mistaken ideas "dunderheads," etc. Huge ego, but I liked the book. I heard he passed away a few years ago.

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