Silk Line Loop

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PYochim
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Silk Line Loop

#1

Post by PYochim »

My wife picked up a Phoenix silk line as a belated birthday gits. My question is this: What type of thread does everyone use in tying the loop at the front end of the line and how big of a loop do you use? Do you coat it with anything?

Thanks in advance.

rsagebrush
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#2

Post by rsagebrush »

I have use 'Roman Moser' Minicon loops for years and never had one come off yet. It makes a nice smooth connection.

RaspberryPatch
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#3

Post by RaspberryPatch »

I nail knot in Maxima Chameleon, typically with a perfection loop 1-2" below. This works well, if you are using one of their leaders that may have shipped with the line.

I would not add any other treatment, other than Otter Butter / Red Muclin / et cetera in this case.

I have not done the following on the silk lines, but I will nail knot in the butt, and then tie leaders from this out. For examples, I recently received a 390 grain Spey Vector Line for a 15'6" rod without a loop. I nail knot in a 6' #25 lb Maxima and I know consider this the end of the line. I just hand tie my leader this this point.

PYochim
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#4

Post by PYochim »

Gentlemen, thank you.

NewUtahCaneAngler
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#5

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

I use silk size A and wrap a small loop then coat with spar

billems
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#6

Post by billems »

Those lines are thinner; some recommend a smaller diameter mono as the butt section.

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DrLogik
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#7

Post by DrLogik »

On my Phoenix I wrapped the end with white silk Pearsall's and varnished the wraps. It held for years. I stripped that line months ago and haven't gotten around to refinishing it. However, when I do, I'm attaching a Moser's Minicon braided loop. I have those on most of my lines. No hinging if you "spoon" the loop on the leader, and makes changing leader a cinch.

RaspberryPatch
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#8

Post by RaspberryPatch »

To a previous point, I will select the mono in accordance that feels like the best match in flex that complements the line tip. The default is Maxima Chamelon as it is stiffer than Ultragreen, but would use Ultragreen to or if I need stiffer ( like a Monic 11wt), then RIO salt. As I tie leaders and fish from trout to bonefish, I have the material available.

For the silk line, you can consider Ultragreen 25# and if you want fine even 20.

billems
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#9

Post by billems »

PYochim wrote:
10/10/21 20:12
My wife picked up a Phoenix silk line as a belated birthday gits. My question is this: What type of thread does everyone use in tying the loop at the front end of the line and how big of a loop do you use? Do you coat it with anything?

Thanks in advance.
She bought you a new Phoenix? The woman is a saint!

flyty2
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#10

Post by flyty2 »

PYochim wrote:
10/10/21 20:12
My wife picked up a Phoenix silk line as a belated birthday gits. My question is this: What type of thread does everyone use in tying the loop at the front end of the line and how big of a loop do you use? Do you coat it with anything?

Thanks in advance.
I just did this for the first time a couple of weeks ago. The first thing I did--wrongly--was not to follow the Phoenix directions on how to uncoil the line. Big mistake! My line seems to have permanent twists in it. I think I need to go to a bridge that is high enough and uncoil my line from the reel and let it hang so that all the twists come out of it.

After doing some research on how to create loops on the end of a fly line, and after purchasing some Rio braided loops( are they significantly different from Moser's Minicon braided loops??), I ultimately decided to whip a loop on the end of my new straw colored Phoenix DT 5wt, and I also decided that I wanted a loop on each end of the line in case the tip started sinking after X hours of fishing, then I could flip the line around. I am still a little unclear about the actual mechanics for swapping ends streamside, e.g. how do you uncoil the line from your reel such that it doesn't become a tangled mess?

Next, how do you whip a loop? I watched a video where they used two fly tying vises to hold the line, and I watched a video where they whipped a loop by hand, but in both cases they were using a much thicker line. I settled on whipping a loop by hand using Brian Flechsig's method (Mad River Outfitters); he uses wraps that create something similar to a nail knot, which he calls a snell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGKx6fa6KbQ

I happened to have some Pearsall's silk thread amongst my fly tying materials, so I used that. But, when I pulled the nail/snell knot tight, the silk thread broke very easily. If I were to do it again, I would use some Uni 8/0 fly tying thread that I typically use to tie dry flies because it's much stronger. I made the loop as small as possible, in an attempt to make the end of the fly line as light as possible, but after I tied the first loop, I realized it was too small: I was not able to easily thread a Zen silk leader through it--because the leader employs a loop tied with a knot, so I snipped off the loop I had just whipped on the end of my fly line, and I tied a bigger loop. For the loop that I snipped off, I used about 10 wraps with the silk thread, but because the silk thread was so weak, for the second loop I decided to use 15 wraps and overwrap that with another 15 wrap nail/snell knot. I'm really not sure how strong that is, but I decided to go with it.

I had recently purchased some fly tying materials, and along with my order I purchased a tube of Loon Knot Sense($8.50) and a UV pen light($11--now only $9) from jstockard, so I decided to test them out. I had clipped the end of the fly line at an angle to make a tapered transition to the main line. Then I put a dab of Knot Sense on the silk thread, and I used a toothpick to spread the Knot Sense over all the silk wraps and the transition to the main line. Then I zapped the glue for a couple of minutes with the UV light, and it looked pretty good, and it wasn't very heavy or bulky, so I was pleased with the outcome.

I actually emailed Phoenix, and I asked them what they recommended for attaching a Phoenix furled leader with a loop on the end to a Phoenix silk fly line with no loop on the end, and here was their response:
Thank you for making oontact. Mike recommends the Modified Grey's Loop, rather than making a loop with the end of the line which is too bulky and does not give you a smooth transition. Here is a link to a short explanation we did to show how to make this loop.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/frenchhol ... 865524897/
In the end, I wasn't too keen on doing that because I wanted a silk to silk connection for aesthetic reasons.

I ordered some Otter Butter floatant to apply to the new line, and narcodog, the inventor, has posted instructions for treating new lines:
As was stated in the previous thread new lines need some extra application, so they will float longer. This is what I recommend. Warm the O.B. and be sure the chamois pad is THOROUGHLY saturated. Then run your line both ways through the butter. Let it rest about 30min and repeat. Then before you hit the water again run the line both ways through the O.B. I then wait about 20 mins so the stuff will set up.

In cold weather I put the container in front of the vehicle heater or just put it in my pocket so it's warm by the time I get ready to make the application.
viewtopic.php?f=65&t=131343&p=886599&hi ... nd#p886599

I did that whole procedure two days in a row, so I applied Otter Butter four times (more is better??). The first time I fished the line, I fished for about four hours, and I didn't notice the tip sinking.

I had to experiment with tippet size and length to get a size 16 fly to turn over with the Zen silk leader. At first the silk leader was just puddling, so I ended up tying some 4x onto the end of the silk leader then tapering to 5x.

After fishing, I followed a procedure that I read about here: I had two paper bags, and I unspooled the whole line from my reel into one paper bag, while passing it through a paper towel with some liquid dishwashing soap on it to clean the line. Then, I passed the line through the paper towel a second time from the first paper bag into the second paper bag. Then, I let the line dry in the paper bag overnight, and the next day I ran the line both ways through some Otter Butter. The next time I went fishing, the first thing I did when I got to the stream was apply some Otter Butter, running the line both ways through the pad. It took me about 30 minutes to get geared up, which gave the Otter Butter time to set up. Once again, I fished for about four hours, and I didn't notice the tip of the line sinking, so all seems to be working well.
Last edited by flyty2 on 10/13/21 13:34, edited 19 times in total.

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cappy
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#11

Post by cappy »

Consider using a Castwell Knot and leave the end of your fly line as it came.
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flyty2
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#12

Post by flyty2 »

DrLogik wrote:
10/10/21 23:16
On my Phoenix I wrapped the end with white silk Pearsall's and varnished the wraps. It held for years. I stripped that line months ago and haven't gotten around to refinishing it. However, when I do, I'm attaching a Moser's Minicon braided loop. I have those on most of my lines. No hinging if you "spoon" the loop on the leader, and makes changing leader a cinch.
What is "spooning" the loop on the leader?

flyty2
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#13

Post by flyty2 »

NewUtahCaneAngler wrote:
10/10/21 20:59
I use silk size A and wrap a small loop then coat with spar
How does silk size A compare to Uni 8/0? I've tried to lookup what silk size A is, but I haven't been able to decipher what size it is.

bluesjay
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#14

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, I don't use silk often. I have some lines that I put a loop onto wrapping with silk. I also glue an Orvis braided leader with the loop cut off and 'hand cuffed' to the end. That is a lot smoother transition.

Edit: Untwisting a line might be done by letting it drag in a pretty strong current for a while. It works well for mono.

Jay Edwards

flyty2
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#15

Post by flyty2 »

bluesjay wrote:
10/13/21 12:45
Untwisting a line might be done by letting it drag in a pretty strong current for a while. It works well for mono.
Jay Edwards
Yeah, I thought of that. I just haven't fished a stream with a run that long yet. Thanks!

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DrLogik
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#16

Post by DrLogik »

flyty2,

The "Spooning" term comes from one of Oliver Edwards' videos on leader/line technique. He takes an old spoon handle and slips it through the loop and pulls tight. Then he takes hemostats and lightly squishes the end of the loop together so that it is more closed than open. I tried that a long time ago and it works pretty well. the loop-to-loop connection is a lot more slender and streamlined.

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Shrimpman
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#17

Post by Shrimpman »

Being a heretic, I pondered this matter for a couple of reconditioned old lines, then threw an overhand knot in them and happily use the plastic Leader Links. :D

Eddie Southgate
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Re: Silk Line Loop

#18

Post by Eddie Southgate »

I use the cheap braided loops from China bought off ebay . They have a clear plastic sleeve on them to lock the braid to the line , it works . Inch the braid up the line once started on by holding the piece with the line already in it and pushing on the braid to expand it and just inch it on till you hit the plastic sleeve down by the loop . I pull the sleeve about to the middle of the braid . So far I have not had one come loose , I thought about adding some type of glue but so far I haven't seen the need . I bought the 30lb loops . They go through the tiny guides on my old Leonard rods without hanging (so far) , I use one on each end so I can easily flip the line and tie a big loop on the backing so I can pass the whole line rolled up through the loop.

I will probably end up adding the glue to the ends of the tube to make it more streamlined than it already is . On plastic lines I do glue them and eliminate the sleeve .
Wore out old rod junkie , WILL WORK FOR RODS .

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