Single vs snake guides

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, As Mr. Gnome points out the knot not [heh] hanging up is pretty significant.

Jay Edwards

[dkrismer]

For what its worth my absolute favorite fly rod is the very first one I bought. A G. Loomis GL3 9'-5wt fly rod that throws a perfect loop with lots of back bone. And it only cost me $175 not the $1000 price tags of today's name brand rods with half the performance. That G. Loomis rod has single loop guides and doesn't look as traditional as the classic snakes. I realize this is a Classic Fly Rod forum but wanted to throw in a couple of cents from my perspective. I have built 5 bamboo rods, all with snake guides, but I plan to make the switch over to single loop guides when I run out of my stash of snakes. I kind of like to do my own thing.

Dave

[bugslinger]

Here's one I made with single foot guides.

[tonkin67]

I'm finishing a Para 17 and plan on using single foot guides. I'm doing it for performance first and maybe lighten it up a bit. I haven't decided what type yet but this post is going to help with that. An 8 wt. that most likely will be used in the salt . Long Island Sound is just across the street

[Titelines]

and some of us are more worried about performance and durability over looks. Each to their own and there should be room for all views.

So how much difference is there in performance on a 7' to 8' rod in the 30' to 50' range of casting where over 90% of fly fishing exists? Durability? Snake guides from over 100 years ago still exist on rods that are fished today, and lines from that age are still around and are still being used.

We all have our own reasons and preferences for using the hardware we do when making rods. You like to use single foot guides. I like to use snake guides. Both work just fine for their intended purpose. But just because you use SiC guides there's no reason to make snide remarks about folks that use snakes. Are you "hide bound to tradition" because you make mortised rods? I mean, that technique has been around for quite a long time, predating the use of snake guides on rods, hasn't it? Do you still use cap and ring, or sliding ring reel seat hardware on your rods? A threaded reel seat will obviously outperform and outlast a cap and ring or sliding ring reel seat. And yet you persist on using those old traditional reel seats on your rods. How about metal ferrules? Have you gone to modern materials for those too?

Form and function are still necessities in high end fishing rods. Yes, there should be room for all views. My views and opinions are worth as much as yours Jeff. No more, no less.

[Gnome]

Mark,

Mortising actually came after snakes (snakes=1853 written about by Frank Forester) Mortising in the 1870's

My cap and ring is very different in the fact that the ring is oval Not round and also hour glassed which allows it to lock like no other cap and ring and I also use my swiveling hood which is an adjustable angle version of the Hardy W fitting which allows it to fit the angle of the reel foot no matter what it is not many other reel seats today can do that and Boy was I honored when John Betts looked at the swiveling hood and said "Jeff That is brilliant!! can I use it on my rods?".

Cap and rings still work really well like the one on the William Copeham rod from 1830 that I have fished (Anybody else here fished a rod that Old??) and that 187 year old reel seat held a reel with no movement even with a fish on.

And the threaded reel seat's have a long way to go to match the fact that a C&R that old still works just fine. That style (threaded) has a long run to catch up much less to be able to say it is better and will last longer.

you apply your 30 to 50 feet in angling when there are people who fish far and fine like in the 50 to 80 foot range and more and there lies a huge difference. Not everyone fishes short. Some people are forced to fish longer lines due to not being able to wade as deep or as far as others can.

The use of mortised rods is due to the fact that I really like to feel what my rod is doing and removing Nature's finest Dampening agent called cork helps me to achieve that. Also I think they are stunning in their appearance besides the feel.

Last 6 rods built all have SCOTT glass ferrules designed for the rod they are on. Awesome that I do still bleed crimson which makes me a part of the SCOTT family and this gives me the ability to get special material others can not.

My goal has always been form follows function and I try to combine what I see as the best of all materials and from all ages to build high performance fishing rods that have the style and grace of the past and performance to go toe to toe with the graphite boys and get back the market they have taken from the bamboo maker. Especially that 7' to 8' share of the market where bamboo shines incredibly bright.

Durability= I can show you example after example after example of silk line abraded tip tops and guides going back to the 1870's we do have a fix for this and that fix was actually patented in 1863 by R.N.Issacs. This was for the application of a hard vitreous or enamel like substance to guide to reduce friction and wear. This applies to rods that are fished lots and hard.

Agate is a 7 on the Mohs scale and silk lines=strong as steel which is also a 7 this becomes a flexible steel file and add in just a little bit of grit and you have a recipe for extreme abrasion = lots of old rods with chewed up guides.

When I push makers by challenging them to step out of the box it might just lead to something new and unique and very useful to all. I see the art and craft stagnating due to all of the clones being made today, that is no advancement just staying in one place and doing the same thing over and over and over which will lead to stagnation. IMHO

Gnome

FlySlinger, awesome piece of work combining the old and the new!! Good on Ya.

P.S. remember that the one tradition of rod making that seems to be ignored is Constant evolution of the tool has went hand in hand with fishing the rods and how we fish over the last hundreds of years, I believe we have a long way we can go with bamboo if we do not just stay at 1950.

[Titelines]

So, using techniques from 1853 doesn't tend to make one "hidebound"?

Sure there are folks that fish in the 50' to 80' range. They make up that portion of the folks not included in the 90+% of fly fishing. Never said there wasn't.

Doesn't matter if your cap and rings aren't round. They're still cap and rings, and have been around for a very long time. Yours are just a different style is all. 187 years? My, my. That certainly sounds hidebound to me.

That being said, anyone who makes a bamboo rod is hidebound, and anachronistic. Graphite is definitely more durable, and has higher performance pound for pound than bamboo. However, I prefer bamboo.

You make your rods the way you like, I'll make rods the way I like. I'll make a promise to you. I won't make snide comments about your stuff if you stop making them about the way the vast majority of cane rodmakers make theirs. Deal?

[baetisrodhani]

[quote="Titelines"]


That being said, anyone who makes a bamboo rod is hidebound, and anachronistic. Graphite is definitely more durable, and has higher performance pound for pound than bamboo. However, I prefer bamboo.

Is it sure it's more durable ? None are a hundred or more years old yet. And they're apparently much more prone to fracture and fatigue (read Jocelyn de Lespinay's study) than bamboo is. I've seen a few just burst in the act of normal casting. Bamboo rods, unless previously injured or poorly made at the outset, apparently only fall to mishandling or carelessness.

Giles

[tonkin67]

I would like to weigh the proper amount of single foot guides for a given rod along side the correct amount of snakes for the same rod. I'm just curious, has any one done this ? I say proper amount because there might be less single foot guides used . Snakes are surely lighter than most of the single foot with low abrasive rings that I'm finding.

[oneculm]

I am trying to do it now, but have to wait for coats of varnish to dry.It was mentioned that the extra amount of varnish on a regular snake guide might add more weight but not sure how much. dave m

[Titelines]

That being said, anyone who makes a bamboo rod is hidebound, and anachronistic. Graphite is definitely more durable, and has higher performance pound for pound than bamboo. However, I prefer bamboo.

Is it sure it's more durable ? None are a hundred or more years old yet. And they're apparently much more prone to fracture and fatigue (read Jocelyn de Lespinay's study) than bamboo is. I've seen a few just burst in the act of normal casting. Bamboo rods, unless previously injured or poorly made at the outset, apparently only fall to mishandling or carelessness.

Giles

Bamboo, like any other natural plant, will eventually decay. There are things we can do to lengthen it's longevity, but it will decay. Composite structures don't really have that problem.

Mark

[Titelines]

I would like to weigh the proper amount of single foot guides for a given rod along side the correct amount of snakes for the same rod. I'm just curious, has any one done this ? I say proper amount because there might be less single foot guides used . Snakes are surely lighter than most of the single foot with low abrasive rings that I'm finding.

I think that's been done a few times in the past and indeed, the snake guide was shown to be lighter than the single foot SiC guide. They were approximately the same weight as the single foot wire guide.

Mark