Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

This board is for discussing the repair and restoration of bamboo fly rods, makers discussion and construction techniques relating to same. Examples would be different techniques or methods used by restorationists and makers.

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mwfick
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#61

Post by mwfick »

Hey Jeff, did you get a set from Matt? I saw the listing and was considering them for a spinning rod I need to make, knowing they were knockoffs, I was not sure what to think of them.
Mike

Proofflyfishing
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#62

Post by Proofflyfishing »

Hi everyone,

Just wanted to add a quick point of clarification: The guides I have are not "knock-offs", they are simply another brand of guides that have the same ceramic insert, but without the marketing. You can find them here:

https://www.proofflyfishing.com/collections/hardware

Thanks,

Matt
http://www.proofflyfishing.com
Tutorials, cork, reel seats, Snake Brand guides, agate guides...

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#63

Post by mwfick »

No offence intended there Matt
Mike

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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#64

Post by Proofflyfishing »

Hi Mike,

None taken. :D
http://www.proofflyfishing.com
Tutorials, cork, reel seats, Snake Brand guides, agate guides...

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Tom Smithwick
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#65

Post by Tom Smithwick »

Just to add a bit of credence to what Matt said, I was anxious to try these guides on a rod. I got one of Matt's 8 foot fiberglass 5 weight blanks and a set of the guides and built the rod over the weekend. The weather was not bad here yesterday so I got to cast it with a Wulff line. On the third cast, I wound up with about 10 feet of line hanging from the stripping guide to the backing knot. To be fair, there was a bit of a tailwind, but even so, I'm pretty old to be making a cast like that with a 5 weight. The guides are for real. They felt very slick on short casts with the thicker portion of the line in the guides, too.

eastprong
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#66

Post by eastprong »

I asked the question of torzite performance over at the Rodbuilders.org board hoping that Tom Kirkman would weigh in, which he did.

https://www.rodbuilding.org/read.php?2,499263

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#67

Post by snorider »

Slick! And Toms response makes little sense to me, he says competitive casters use very few guides which implies they are trying to reduce friction.

Having a cane rod with SiC guides I can testify to the longer casting allowed with these guides, primarily by not slowing the line when shooting. I can shoot easily 2x the line with vitreous guides as I can with snakes. No difference with the amount that can be held in the air of course but a double haul sends WAY more line thru the guides with SiC, and torzite is even slicker...
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it. T.R.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#68

Post by Gnome »

I must respectfully disagree with The comments from Mr Kirkman and the others in that thread, to me they show that he / they have never cast a rod with full Torzites with the exception of one person in that thread,

the difference is so great that it must be acknowledged and any who deny it most likely have never cast a rod fully guided with Ceramic Nitride guides/ Torzites, IMHO the difference is so great that it must be recognized!!
because to deny the difference is only done with a lack of experience with them. The drop in friction is so extreme that if you are a decent caster you will Immediately notice the difference.

Bamboo with the the Torzite / ceramic nitride will automatically hold their own with equivalent weight and length graphite rods due to the drop in friction and to me that is a good thing. I Like seeing bamboo kicking butt on graphite and this is a very effective way to do that.

Long live the wondrous grass and may it take back some of the market it has lost.

P.S. and 99% of the comment's their seem to have been made by people with 0 experience with the guides. Conjecture and not fact. And in this thread it is shown that the Torzites weigh less than an equivalent snake so that argument in the rod makers thread about weight does not fly either. And I will not touch the comment about not seeing grooved guides, other than the GTRS shows a whole herd of rods with grooved guides.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#69

Post by japhy0508 »

I've not chimed in and am pretty new on the forum....my take as well wrt bamboo rods, building, etc.....there is a very distinct camp of traditional vs those that are willing to challenge old assumptions. I love this topic. My first rod build was a cheap glass blank where I used 2 SiC stripping guides and then the rest were the stand-off H&H single foot guides. As soon as I cast it, I could tell there was something different to my existing rods....way smoother, quiet as there was no blank contact. I'm going to be building a lightweight 3wt graphite rod for backcountry sierra lakes soon using torzite guides....very much looking forward to it from everything I've read including Gnome's comments. The next bamboo rod I build will very likely have them as well. Even if you park the weight comparison, the ability to stay off the blank and use guides with a friction coefficient significantly less than snakes...you're going to end up shooting further. Seems like the final question is if it matters to you. If you're happy with tradition, then that is fine....discussion over. Thanks for bringing this up and look forward to the continued feedback from you and others on their practical use (distance, durability, sizing recommendations, etc)

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#70

Post by Gnome »

Kudos to your open minded views japhy0508!!!!
in my experience for sizing you do not want to go below a 6MM,

And as far as durability goes;

The rods I sold commercially carry a one of a kind guarantee;

"If you wear an S.I.C. guide out through honest fishing wear I will replace the guide and then I will build you a matching rod as well" Do not see any other bamboo rod maker offering that level of a guarantee!!!

This is a guarantee I will never have to stand up to because you can not wear out the S.I.C's and I believe the Torzites / Ceramic Nitride are going to be just as tough and they are much slicker than a S.I.C.. Have been continually fishing 1 set of SICS on multiple rods over a 33 year period and that set of guides shows absolutely no wear. and they have outlasted 3 different blanks, 2 graphite and they are now on my 7'6" 3/2 granger tapered and mortised float / boat rod. where they will stay for good!!!

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#71

Post by japhy0508 »

Thanks Gnome. I'll use several 6's including a tiptop of that size for this rod. 12, 10, 8, 7 for the first 4.....I know....perhaps a little large, or not getting down quick enough....lots of theories on this. I look around at every casting rod and see huge initial guides relative to the mono they are using so I'm running with a variant of the same strategy.

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#72

Post by Gnome »

Don't be bound by the small guide tradition which I have found to definitely be, NOT for me!! I prefer the guides to be large and less restrictive from my experience with them and the S.I.C.'s over 3+ decades.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#73

Post by samsonboi »

Isn't the reason guides used to be small that silk lines are a lot finer in diameter, so guides didn't need to be big?
"Car ce n'est pas assez d'avoir l'esprit bon, mais le principal est de l'appliquer bien.”- Descartes

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#74

Post by samsonboi »

By which I mean, shouldn't we use larger guides today for the majority of lines used which are plastic?
"Car ce n'est pas assez d'avoir l'esprit bon, mais le principal est de l'appliquer bien.”- Descartes

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#75

Post by Gnome »

Holy Cow! These guides are truly amazing for their extreme lack of friction and lightweight, not only are they good for the distance but the lack of friction makes fishing in close that much easier as well. and they fit the two sporting goods manufacturers mantras that some seem to ignore which is Performance first and durability second!!

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Peales
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#76

Post by Peales »

I have no doubt about the efficiency of torzite guides. I don’t think people are so reluctant to advance the effectiveness of their cane rod performance either. That bamboo performance can be enhanced by such a simple advancement is brilliant. The problem for me —and I guessing a few traditionalist as well— is the the guide frames look out of place on a finely crafted bamboo fly rod. In my estimation the aesthetics of the guide design falls short of the technical advancement of the guide.

Maybe some enterprising rod maker could start making better-looking frames using the torzite inserts? I’d be first in line to place an order.

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mer
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#77

Post by mer »

Peales wrote:
06/24/20 22:17
I have no doubt about the efficiency of torzite guides. I don’t think people are so reluctant to advance the effectiveness of their cane rod performance either. That bamboo performance can be enhanced by such a simple advancement is brilliant. The problem for me —and I guessing a few traditionalist as well— is the the guide frames look out of place on a finely crafted bamboo fly rod. In my estimation the aesthetics of the guide design falls short of the technical advancement of the guide.

Maybe some enterprising rod maker could start making better-looking frames using the torzite inserts? I’d be first in line to place an order.
Jeff and I had a discussion about the guides on my first rod from him, but in relation to the single foot SiC ones he was using at the time. Basically, "Single foot standing ring guides, is there historical precedent for them on fly rods?" The answer is yes (he can probably provide details if you want), and they were probably after hanging rings and before snakes. That was good enough for me on my rods from him.

As for the look, sure, it looked different when I first got it, but I got it to fish, not just look at and the way the rod fished(fishes) was a subtle improvement to me (this is still on the SiC rod).

But you have a valid point that the look of the guides is not for everyone, but there is historical precedent for the single foot standing ring guides, and on a GRW rod, they look right to me. I think one of Jeff's points is "don't get hung up on tradition simply because it's tradition". Maybe try a set on an experimental rod, maybe the way it works you can overlook the "looks", maybe it'll help convince someone to make better looking frames.

Remember, some people think the AMC Gremlin was a good looking car. :)

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#78

Post by Gnome »

Glad I never read the book that requires a rod to "Look" a certain way, IMHO that is a self-imposed limiting view of what a fly rod should be and it is carried forward to the detriment of the evolution of the tool. Snakes are tradition because they are adequate as a guide and they are CHEAP compared to other guides and thus to make money, makers have made an adequate guide the standard.

There are other guides out there that will do the job better and last longer. And the single standing ring was the standard well before the snake guide was twisted and introduced. One thing really not talked about is the fact that a single foot/ring guided rod carries 50% fewer wraps and the corresponding finish on those wraps is a drop in weight and less time spent wrapping. Besides the fact that barring a catastrophe, the guides will last forever, no worries about the silk line grooving the guide, and the drop in friction is the key to performance in close as well as at distance.

And to top it all off, the single standing ring will NEVER trap a knot the way snake guides will and DO! Ever wonder why there are so many short tips broken at the first or second guide? It comes from pulling line and leader through the snakes and having the leader knot wedge into the tapered narrowing opening at the guide feet And Kaboom! :eek there goes the tip!. The single standing ring does not have that trap point and immediately negates that problem.

I see some lamenting how small the numbers of recruitment are for new anglers and some potential new anglers are completely put off by the "Bound by tradition" group and that is not a good thing when we need more recruitment to help protect the waters and the sport we love.

And like Tom Smithwick has told me "The looks grow on you as you fish the rod" Tom does not prefer to fish rods with snake guides now that he has seen a new "Way" and understands what little or no friction in the cast means to the angler.

Yep, they are not for everyone but they also should not be put down until you have actually fished a rod with the Ceramic Nitrides and can speak from experience and not conjecture. You will be blown away by their performance. And I do care how my rods look to the point (each rod is unique within a style and each one is a unique piece of art), and there are not many makers rods out there that you can see from 10' away and immediately say that is a gnome rod or a Gnomish school rod due to its style of build. Most rods are done in the traditional style and thus are extremely similar to the point of being the same to a fault. There is more to be done with the tool if we can allow ourselves to peek out of the box of tradition once in a while.

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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#79

Post by LeeO »

So are they US makers of these guides? I try my best to avoid off shore products, with the exception of tip tops - I can’t find light wire from as US maker.
Lee Orr
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#80

Post by Franknrod »

Fredrick M. Halford in his 1913 book, The Dry-Fly Man's Handbook (pages 9 - 10) advocates that the best material for fly rod guides is agates! Hardy actually manufactured a "Halford" rod with all agate guides. Halford quotes J. J. Hardy as saying that agate rings shot line better, do not groove with use and does not rust. Although the weight was higher Halford felt the balance of a fly rod with the reel attached was more important than weight.

It is hard to be more "traditional" than Halford. If he was open to innovations that improved fly rod performance, perhaps we should also. Modern ceramics are the lighter and stronger successors to agates and only require a single foot in many sizes.

I have used torzite guides on four of my rods so far and I really like them. Of course, since I do not sell my rods, I don't have to convince customers of the value of doing something different!
Frank Payne

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