Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

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TimM
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#121

Post by TimM »

canerodscom wrote:
07/07/20 08:34
’s just quicker and easier to buy a coupla graphite blanks Jeff. That’s all. Why waste a week building test rod blanks when I can buy nice, consistent graphite blanks and be wrapping by this weekend? So for me it’s simply a question of do I spend a week or more building bamboo test rods or a few hours and a few dollars on graphite test rods?

If the guides pass muster on graphite then maybe I’ll jump on the bandwagon.


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Makes sense to me.

For my test I used a bamboo blank and 'temp wrapped' some Fuji TKTTG guides on the blank using sewing thread and afterward did the same with Alconite guides. Since I'm not doing a finish quality job it takes less than a minute to wrap a guide.

A side by side comparison with two identical rods would have been better.

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eastprong
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#122

Post by eastprong »

Thank you, Harry, for bringing a modicum of science to this discussion.

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#123

Post by Gnome »

Thank Rob Smith for the science in this thread. he put down the actual weights of the torzites (These are verifiable facts) Harry's post has a lot of conjecture backed up by little or no experience with the CiN guides. And the numbers he used are arbitrary and I believe they were used to minimize the effects of lack of friction in the cast. Harry is a hardcore snake fanatic!!! and always has been!! and I believe he always will be!.

And that is just FINE! but please do not impede the advancement of the craft by others who are willing to try anything other than a snake guide on a Bamboo rod.

I think we all agree that bamboo provides one of the smoothest actions in the cast of all of the material we have access to today!

So why not use a component that adds to the smoothness of the cast? IT is because it is not tradition (poor excuse at best)!!. and No responses to my comments about the constant albeit slow evolution of the tool over 200 years? I believe that snakes are not the end all be all of the guides.

edit; funny how it is ok to do graphite as a test but not bamboo when this forum is about bamboo. I find that very odd!

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canerodscom
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#124

Post by canerodscom »

canerodscom wrote:I wonder if we might quantify this a little bit....

...These numbers are certainly not correct...

...I'm just trying to quantify...

...Again, I'd like some help trying to quantify how much of an advantage that really is....

...Let's suppose that the caster is very good. ....

...Let's suppose also that this good caster is reaching out to his maxiumum potential.....

... how much additional line can he shoot through the guides? ....

...So let's use these admittedly dreamed up numbers and do a little math. ....

...Do those of you who are proponents of these super-guides think these numbers are anywhere near in line with reality?....

... Once we quantify we can begin to ask other questions about expectations, aesthetics, and so on.
As you can see from the quotes above I never once suggested that my numbers are correct. They were placed there in hopes that we might broaden this discussion by talking numbers rather than “feel” or “smooth”. When a claim is made that something is objectively better we ought to be able to test that claim objectively

Here’s a proposed test for you:

My go-to big water rod has been cast by lots of you guys at lots of rod makers gatherings. I call it my LSU rod because my daughter was an LSU student when I made it and wrapped it purple and gold. When I made that rod it was one of three blanks made from the same two culms of bamboo; one for Pat S, this LSU rod; and a yet-to-be-finished-out blank still on the shop shelf. All three blanks were made at the same time nine years ago from the same bamboo.

I’ll order some Torzite guides today and make this blank up. Then I propose to do some casting tests and report the results. The only way I know to objectify this is with numbers. What about these tests, measured with a tape measure?

Twenty casts with each rod for max distance measured and recorded, then averaged.

Twenty casts for max distance while false casting only 30’ of line and shooting as much line as possible. This will attempt to test line shooting.

Are these fair tests?

Are there other objective tests I should make and record?

When I get this blank put together would any of you like to come to the shop and try these two rods side by side? (Not gonna mail them multiple places — as I said this is my daily fishing rod)

Any other suggestions to help objectively evaluate snake versus Torzite rather than try to win an argument?


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eastprong
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#125

Post by eastprong »

It is Harry's willingness to do a side-by-side test that tries to control for other external factors that is scientific in nature.

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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#126

Post by oddsnrods »

It was mentioned previously that fly line has two points of contact while travelling through snakes and one point of contact with the wonder guides. I would say that casting line, of any type, it will be rattling through touching many points on the inside of round or snake guides, and most probably there will be some moisture on it to aid it's travels. Fly line also slaps the rod to some extent between whichever guides are used, this is reduced if guides are place closer together, which increases drag, so on it goes.

There are also the various finishes to fly lines adding to the mix, some harder some softer - silk lines are thinner, the braid itself reduces the contact with rod and guides as it goes along - plus much less air resistance, they fairly wizzes out, very old fashioned and traditional ..

Personally, having used all available makes and types of guides over the past 50 years, for all methods, from High Bells (chrome with agate inserts) to SIC and agate to the full range of Fuji's etc, I see little difference to distances cast as there are so many other variables, wind, my style (or lack of it at times) etc. When casting artificial baits a couple of drops of oil on the level wind will increase distance alone regardless of guide type.

Time spent with a casting instructor may well increase the distance costing the same a couple of sets of wonder guides and give an advantage using many types of rods and situations. Who knows.

Malcolm

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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#127

Post by Pentalux »

It was already mentioned in this thread but since he was referenced earlier and is considered more of an authority to some here, this from Tom Kirkman from a similar discussion in 2003 between single foot ceramics and snakes, "You don't have to build up two blanks (and such a thing would not give you the relative results you'd be after). You would have to use the same blank, with each type of guide affixed for its own tests, in order to get the most relative results." He also noted; "What I found on my own rods, was a reduction in weight, longer line life and smoother drag pay-out, a quieter rod, and the freedom from having to worry about worn guides under any and all circumstances. As far as increased casting distance, I tried all sorts of guides and on my casting machine, found that good ceramic guides, with everything else being equal, will usually increase your casting distance by about 3% to 5%. That's only a few feet at best, on anyone's cast."

Relative to ceramics I agree with Tom but with Torzites being even smoother, tougher and lighter (weight alone makes them worth it to me) than SiC's they represent the furthest advancement in guides to date and are unequivocally better relative to performance. It should be noted that this is the first guide ring material specifically designed for its purpose. Silicon carbide has been around for over a hundred years. It may be minutia and not worth the money or effort to some but from testing these on one blank using simple tape to mount the guides you will know in about 5 minutes.

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cdmoore
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#128

Post by cdmoore »

Here is a nice demonstration and explanation from Fuji showing some differences between Torzite and SiC. This is data for your consideration and neither an endorsement for or against Torzite. Torzite was announced in Japan in 2013 and widely available in 2014 so this is nothing new.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... e=emb_logo

If you want to understand what is being said, but don't understand spoken Japanese--I don't--you can generate intelligible English subtitles by using the settings in the bottom right corner of the YouTube video. Under Settings > Subtitles/CC, choose Japanese (auto-generated). Then go back into Settings > Subtitles/CC, click on Auto-translate and select English from the language list.

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TimM
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#129

Post by TimM »

Haha, nice video; explains a few things. The like the sliding guide friction test. I've been trying to think of a good way to compare sliding friction. The wife walked in while I was watching so I paused the video. The onscreen translation was "If this becomes a guide state, you can do about 10% sexuality department". She doesn't ask as many questions as she once did.

Looking forward to some test results. I plan to work on some rods for Lake Superior fishing over the winter where I'd surely pay for any significant improvement.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#130

Post by cutthroatkid »

After reading 129 posts on this topic it seems to me that torzite guides have a definite advantage in weight and friction and seem to be a superior material with little downsides except maybe cost and appearance (for traditionalists).. The latter might be a significant advantage for long casts or situations such as mountain lakes with limited backcast space. It's interesting that the first recommended step to improving an old blue collar cane rod is to increase the number of guides, thereby increasing the friction of casting. Go figure.

I suspect that there are a fair number of anglers who do not really care much about a slight weight difference in guides (how much does a pack of snake guides weigh anyway - probably about 1% of the total weight of rod, reel and line). Some of us rarely cast more than 10 or 15 yards and so the decreased friction doesn't matter. For these people I doubt switching to torzite would increase the fun factor (actually the single most important aspect for consideration) or pleasure in fishing significantly. Then there are those whose pleasure is increased by the "traditional" appearance of the rod, just as some folks prefer side by side double barrels although other shotgun types may be more efficient. The whole discussion can seem like a tempest in a teapot if you fall into these categories.

I am glad some people get interested in this sort of stuff, don't get me wrong. It eventually advances the equipment. I'm just saying is there's no "wrong" in what a person puts on his or her rod.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#131

Post by Gnome »

oddsnrods, so how many torzite guided rods have you built and cast? You say you have built with all of the guides available which would include the CiN/Torzites? I have not had a single caster who could not immediately sense the difference these guides make and I have put rods with these guides in a lot of hands, way more than 50.

did you actually pass 50 rods built in the last 20 years yet? And in the number of rods you have built, how many have the very guides we are discussing installed on them? Once again conjecture without actually having experience with them. And as far as contact points on the backcast the force is pulling the line down into the base of the snake guide thus 2 contact points per guide on every back cast thus creating more friction. Go film yourself casting and look closely at how the line is contacting the guides, 2 points of contact on the backcast and 1 on the front with snakes and 1 point front and back cast with single rings.

Harry, a 1 to 1 test I will believe and I put forward that challenge before you did, and I know what will happen because of actual experience with these guides and you probably will not like what happens because of the drop in friction, conjecture I will always call out. ANd it is sad that you won't do this with bamboo (See edit below) because the smoothness of the two together is magic. I believe they were made for each other. Durability and performance the two most important mantras of the rod maker or they should be and the last should be making it "look right".

And I am glad that you are going to do a test with the cane, good for you!!! just be ready to eat black feathers because as good of a caster as you are you WILL NOTICE the difference and your measured test will show what some of us have been talking about

TimM, be ready for an eye-opener;-)

Rob knows what he is talking about because of actual experience with the guides and it is not conjecture. Good on Ya mate! keep up the good fight.
Last edited by Gnome on 07/09/20 07:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#132

Post by mer »

cutthroatkid wrote:
07/08/20 20:08
It's interesting that the first recommended step to improving an old blue collar cane rod is to increase the number of guides, thereby increasing the friction of casting. Go figure.
Funny you should say this; I was just rereading sections of "Tap's Tips" that pertained to exactly this statement. The reason given in the book (paraphrased):

blue collar rods may have fewer guides than optimal because "money" (one or three guides less per rod doesn't save much, but over 1000 rods, the guides and time/materials to wrap them does).
Fewer guides gives the line opportunity to slap on the rod when trying to shoot line, friction, decreasing distance, so add a guide or two.


The equation seems to be: is the friction from added guides less than the friction of line slapping against the rod?

I'm thinking it may simply be time to "agree to disagree" on everything, because I simply can't see what else needs to be said (thread is getting tedious, the same points are getting raised over and over and over....).

Looks? Some like them some don't. Ok, you don't like them, don't use them.
Performance? You think it will benefit you? Ok, use them. You think it won't or it's all hogwash, fine don't use them.

What does everyone else think? Simply lock the thread as it stands, have Harry (or others) start a new one after experimenting? Few people are going to actually go back to the original post and read everything.

That way the dialog, pros, cons, everything said is preserved and the lurkers don't have to buy anymore popcorn.

Yes, No, "shut up mer"?

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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#133

Post by oddsnrods »

With respect Jeff, may I suggest a less confrontational approach.

Making rods is a personal matter- which fittings and guides we use, as has been eluded to before. Were I to be interested in tournament casting I may well consider the new Fuji guides, as it is I fish for pleasure and a large part of that pleasure is creating rods which please me in both appearance and function.

Malcolm

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#134

Post by Gnome »

Malcolm,

It is not just about distance but it is also about effortless delivery in close and a big plus is the ability to fight the wind due to the drop in friction and then add in durability all good things. Maybe someday you will try a set of the Ceramic Nitrides. They in some respects follow the Hardy tradition of bridged guides and you might try a set on one of your two-handers, you might like the results!

Jeff

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#135

Post by BigTJ »

Increasing by the number of guides can reduce friction to a point. The total friction on a 9’ rod with 7 guides is way more than with 12. Why? As stated above, line sag.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#136

Post by samsonboi »

Yes but one thing people don’t think about as much: Line sag actually brings a lot more of the line’s surface area into contact with more of the guides’ surface area.


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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#137

Post by steeliefool »

Physics say yes, but practicality say noooo! We are talking practicality here, yes? I mean.....
U can notice the difference?

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#138

Post by Gnome »

steeliefool wrote:
07/11/20 10:48
Physics say yes, but practicality say noooo! We are talking practicality here, yes? I mean.....
U can notice the difference?
Here is one persons view of the guides for S Fool

Re: The "Dog Rod" just went to hyper car status
#8
Post by mer » 06/27/20 13:18

I had some time a couple hours ago, walked down to the lake with it and relearned how much fun bluegills are and how much they fight above their weight class.
There is definitely a difference; extra line on shooting was running out like nothing (DT4F). More than a couple times I needed more slack because the cast wanted more to pull.
Extending line on false casts definitely easier and smoother, playing the fish I didn't feel like the line was going to hang up on anything.

Thanks for the upgrade Jeff; definitely onto something here.

the bold italic underlined was to emphasize the point. And that is from personal experience and not conjecture.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#139

Post by mer »

I want to point out the "Dog Rod" is one I've owned and fished for at least 5 years with SiC guides so it is "a very familiar rod".

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#140

Post by steeliefool »

samsonboi wrote:
07/11/20 10:41
Yes but one thing people don’t think about as much: Line sag actually brings a lot more of the line’s surface area into contact with more of the guides’ surface area.


Image
Should have done this.My bad!

Physics say yes, but practicality say noooo! We are talking practicality here, yes? I mean.....
U can notice the difference?

I really don't think about guides much at all and therefore have no opinion one way or tuther.

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