Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

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BigTJ
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#141

Post by BigTJ »

No, samboison, sorry but your statement is incorrect, people DO think about line sag causing more friction. That’s why there are tons of articles written on the subject, and why higher-shelf rods have a lot of guides. And in case you didn’t notice there are two other posts on the subject right before yours. I am definitely in the more / lighter / smaller guide camp on this, and using guides that reduce friction while accomplishing this goal is also a factor. However I suspect it’s possible to have too few guides, even with low friction guides like torzites.

samsonboi
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#142

Post by samsonboi »

BigTJ wrote:
07/12/20 09:36
No, samboison, sorry but your statement is incorrect, people DO think about line sag causing more friction. That’s why there are tons of articles written on the subject, and why higher-shelf rods have a lot of guides. And in case you didn’t notice there are two other posts on the subject right before yours.

Yes but those posts were concerned with the slap against the rod allowed by sag.
"Car ce n'est pas assez d'avoir l'esprit bon, mais le principal est de l'appliquer bien.”- Descartes

6tUc05
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#143

Post by 6tUc05 »

samsonboi...

As a "newbie" here, I have been following the thread on Torzite guides with considerable interest, and would like to point out a very important point that you apparently failed to take into consideration when you drew your diagram representing a line going through a guide as an apparent means of demonstrating the friction points between a fly line and a guide. From my college physics course, which I took years before you were born, friction is a function of at least two major components of the two materials, possibly three (I have no desire to try to find my old college Physics text to confirm my recollections). The first of which is the total surface area of the two contact points, the roughness of the surfaces of each component, and the rigidity (stiffness) of each of the elements. As any fly fisher with any degree of experience with various lines will attest, the stiffness, or rigidity, of lines is highly variable, and can change for any given line over time and use; especially with silk fly lines, which typically when new, need to "broken in". Furthermore,"slickness", as is the stiffness, of a line is a major marketing tool of the various line makers of today. Many of us can well remember the days when a "plastic" line, if left on a spool without use, for any period of time, would look like a "slinky" when it was stripped from a spool. Needless to say, such a line was impossible to cast, until it had been stretched to get "the kinks out". I well remember the quip about a well know angler who would take a brick with him when he traveled so that he could hang his lines off the balcony rail of his hotel/motel room overnight to get the kinks out so it could be fished the next day. You be the judge of the veracity of the quip.

Moreover, most, if not all, competent rod builders, be they glass, graphite, or bamboo, will to a "fine tuning" of their guide placements to minimize line slap before final guide wrap. This is why it is recommended that when rebuilding the older "trade" rods, the number of guides on the rod be increased from the original number. So doing greatly improves the "castability" of said rods. I speak from years of personal experience on this last point.

KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#144

Post by Gnome »

Hey Harry,

any update on the torzite experiment and test? got that blank wrapped out yet?? curious gnomes want to know???!!!

Jeff

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henkverhaar
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#145

Post by henkverhaar »

Dunno about Harry, but I'm still waiting for my SiN guides - the USPS shipping times from you to us (across the pond) have increased immensely over the last few months ;-). So I probably won't be reporting any time soon...

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canerodscom
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#146

Post by canerodscom »

My guides should arrive any day now. I hope to be able to have them on the rod shortly thereafter.

Harry

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#147

Post by canerodscom »

The guides from Proof Flyfishing arrived earlier this week. I had a couple of projects to finish before making a little free time. I have begun wrapping the rod but won't finish till next week. I was surprised at the size of the guides. I began nearest the tip with (4) #6 guides, then (3) #7 guides, then (3) #8 guides, finishing up with the stripping guide. The size 6 guide rings are smaller than I expected them to be. The size designation apparently comes from the outside diameter of the ring itself. The feet of the guide are longer and wider than expected too.

I was also surprised at the weight of the guides. All the Torzak guides together weigh 5g on my digital electronic scale. For comparison sake I weighed four #1 Snake Brand guides, three #2 Snake Brand, three #3 Snake Brand guides, and one #9 Mildrum stripping guide since that's what is on the other rod I will be testing. The more typical fly rod guide setup weighs 3.5g on my digital electronic scale. The two feet of a Snake Brand guide will likely be a little longer than the single foot of the Torzak guides, thus requiring a little more thread and finish. So for arguments sake let's say that the lighter weight of the Snake Brand guides is off-set by the additional thread and finish. This weight is not going to be a significant factor.

I hope to finish wrapping the rod next week and have the opportunity to do some casting experiments soon. My plan is to cast twenty casts for max distance with each rod. Measure the distance of each cast, then throw out the two best and two worst. I'll average the other 16 casts. I plan to so something similar with shooting line. Since both rod blanks were made at the same time from the same bamboo the rods themselves should be as close as I can make them. I'll use the same reel and line on each rod.

Any suggestions on how I might do some additional test casting which will evaluate the way each rod casts with different guides?

Just for fun, my daily fishing rod is wrapped purple and gold for LSU. My daughter finished school at LSU. Since this IS a contest, the rod with Torzite guides is going to be wrapped Leonard red, for the University of Alabama. This is a contest, after all. :)

Harry

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mer
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#148

Post by mer »

Harry, that last paragraph, perfect :)

How about roll casting? Would that add any information or just more of the same as the max distance test?

On my rod, what jumped out at me was less effort for a given distance (obviously correlates to "more distance for max effort").
I think there are a lot of subtle things when actually fishing that would be affected, like mending line, setting the hook, anything where the line is moving.

But I'm not sure how to "measure" those.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#149

Post by Pentalux »

Wow - the knock off's are a lot heavier than Fuji's then - I posted these numbers earlier in the thread with measurements in grains - if your weights are grams that's a BIG difference as there are over 15 grains in a gram -- It should be noted that Fuji uses titanium for the guide metal and as we already know is an extremely light weight metal. Harry it sounds like the knock off metal frames and possibly the diameters of the rings are not at all the same as Fuji's - another claim of the Fuji Torzite is the actual shape of the guide ring itself which is likely patented (thinner and flatter than previous SiC style) and thus am sure the knock off's are a different shape and diameter or are similar to traditional SiC dimensions and shapes even if made of the newer material.

13.6 grains (just under one gram) -Standard agate stripper guide #12 - a #10 agate 11.82 grains
12.3 grains - #10 Mildrum guide
9.2 grains - Standard #8 agate stripper
5.4 grains - REC Recoil stripper #8
4.3 grains Fuji Torzite #6 w/ .200 opening or same as about a size 9 agate (this is the reverse stripper guide that I have used on last half dozen rods now and recommended by Fuji for the purpose)

#3 snake brand snake guide weighs 2.6 grains - same distance to top of guide as a
#6 single foot Fuji Torzite which weighs only 1.8 and requires less thread and glue to mount

The following tip tops we're measured with a reloading digital grain scale accurate to +/- .01

Fuji Torzite Arowana tip tops are the lightest tip tops I have ever used outside of a single foot guide. A 3.5 Snake Brand Tip Top weighs 3.56 grains and the Torzite 3.5 (yep them make'm) weighs 2.14 grains --- your likely gonna use a bigger one for your test so for more comparison a #5 snake brand tip top weighs 5.12 grains and the Torzite #5 (with larger opening) weighs 3.06 grains --- Personally have found them to be lighter than traditional hardware across the board.

If the copies are as heavy as you say that will definitely have a counter productive effect on action - 5g is over 75 grains - a proper set of Torzites shouldn't weigh anywhere near that.

Just sayin'

PS - you're also not using the same blank for both sets which will limit the accuracy of your findings but regardless it should be noted than that you are clearly not testing Fuji Torzite guides as originally inquired about but a knock off that is clearly not the same...

carlz
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#150

Post by carlz »

For people who have the Proof guides, are these just the American Tackle NIRLF guides? I'm not sure how comparable they are to Torzite.

Also, I would be really interested in how these torzite compare to Fuji Alconite (LAG) and Sic guides (LSG). When I did a comparison about 10 years ago, I found the Alconite guides were a bit slicker and not much heavier (since while the frame is not titanium, the ring material seems lighter). No science involved, I was comparing graphite builds, but not on the same blank.

I've been fascinated by the Torzites for some time, but I am wondering how they compare to something much more affordable, like a BLAG.

I guess it's time to bite the bullet and buy a set of guides.

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gyoung
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#151

Post by gyoung »

Just ran across this thread.

I agree with the man from LA.

I purchased Fuji guides to try on a 8'6" 9wt and love them. However, I do not believe they save any weight and are actually heavier then if I were to use snakes. Here are the details:

Fuji Torzite with model number (All weights in grains)
Tip TKGTT-6-6 5.13 gr
single foot TKGTT-6J 1.95 gr
single foot TKTTG-7J 2.43 gr
single foot TKTTG-8J 3.65 gr
single foot TKTTG-10J 7.20 gr
Stripper TKWTG-12J 12.7 gr

Did I buy the wrong model of guides?

Snake Brand (weights in grains)
2/0 0.70 gr
1/0 1.00 gr
1 1.30 gr
2 1.55 gr
3 1.95 gr

(I apologize for the formatting......cannot seem to force blank spaces for separation)

Agate Stripper 14.8 gr

If my math is correct, using Harry's guide count and my individual guide weights for both the torzite guides and the snakes, the Torzites would add up to 38.74 grains. Snake guides with a agate stripper would have been 30.5 grains.

Interesting notes:

Guides near the tip where weight will play the biggest factor gives the nod to snakes.
3ft of YLI #100 is .2gr......noise
weight of a dinky piece of varnish near the tip.......noise.

Weight is not causing the noticeable difference between these two guide sets.....the torzite ring is *the* difference.

An analogy: the difference between casting snake guides and torzite guides is like wrapping the fly line around the rod once while rigging up versus using a brand new line strung correctly.

Are they worth $175 for a set?.........................maybe sometimes......
Do they look good on a bamboo rod?..................maybe sometimes.....:-)

Gary Young
CO

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mer
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#152

Post by mer »

carlz wrote:
08/09/20 11:37
Also, I would be really interested in how these torzite compare to Fuji Alconite (LAG) and Sic guides (LSG). When I did a comparison about 10 years ago, I found the Alconite guides were a bit slicker and not much heavier (since while the frame is not titanium, the ring material seems lighter). No science involved, I was comparing graphite builds, but not on the same blank.
Carl, I have a rod that Jeff made for me, a 7ft 4wt that is one of my go to rods for most of my fishing season. Had for few years now (at least 5), went back for minor ferrule reset. While there, he upgraded the SiC to a set of Torzite. So a rod I am more than just familiar with, just a guide change and from a pure "usage" point of view (fishing it) there is a noticeable difference to me. This is not a scientific weigh everything to the last fraction of a grain, measure coefficient of friction, measure distance/effort test, but a real world "put a line on it and fish it".

Gary's analogy is a reasonable one from a "using the rod" POV.

The look may take some getting used to if you prefer what has become "traditional bamboo rod looks", but separate looks and performance and make your choice.

My opinions, based solely on my sample of one, others are free to agree or disagree as they like.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#153

Post by Franknrod »

Harry, You may want to consider adding some target casting to your experiment. More fly fishing is done to targets (rising fish etc.) than for distance. I don't know of any reason to expect one would better than the other, but you may notice a different "feel" to the torzite vs snakes. It would be interesting to see if that has any effect on accuracy
Frank Payne

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#154

Post by Gnome »

gyoung wrote:
08/09/20 15:17
Just ran across this thread.

I agree with the man from LA.

I purchased Fuji guides to try on a 8'6" 9wt and love them. However, I do not believe they save any weight and are actually heavier then if I were to use snakes. Here are the details:

Fuji Torzite with model number (All weights in grains)
Tip TKGTT-6-6 5.13 gr
single foot TKGTT-6J 1.95 gr
single foot TKTTG-7J 2.43 gr
single foot TKTTG-8J 3.65 gr
single foot TKTTG-10J 7.20 gr
Stripper TKWTG-12J 12.7 gr

Did I buy the wrong model of guides?

Snake Brand (weights in grains)
2/0 0.70 gr
1/0 1.00 gr
1 1.30 gr
2 1.55 gr
3 1.95 gr

(I apologize for the formatting......cannot seem to force blank spaces for separation)

Agate Stripper 14.8 gr

If my math is correct, using Harry's guide count and my individual guide weights for both the torzite guides and the snakes, the Torzites would add up to 38.74 grains. Snake guides with a agate stripper would have been 30.5 grains.

Interesting notes:

Guides near the tip where weight will play the biggest factor gives the nod to snakes.
3ft of YLI #100 is .2gr......noise
weight of a dinky piece of varnish near the tip.......noise.

Weight is not causing the noticeable difference between these two guide sets.....the torzite ring is *the* difference.

An analogy: the difference between casting snake guides and torzite guides is like wrapping the fly line around the rod once while rigging up versus using a brand new line strung correctly.

Are they worth $175 for a set?.........................maybe sometimes......
Do they look good on a bamboo rod?..................maybe sometimes.....:-)

Gary Young
CO

And Garys comments that I highlighted and underllined say it very well. It is the ephemeral part. And his description of the feel of the cast is dead on IMHO. The drop in friction is huge and his description of lining the rod properly and improperly fits the performance absolutely perfect.

When I weighed the Sic's that I took off of Mikes Dog Rod they where exactly the same as the set of Torzites I put on the rod from Matt. They weighed exactly the same on my triple beam scale.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#155

Post by 6tUc05 »

Gnome...

Are you sure you really want to use the word EPHEMERAL? It's definition is SOMETHING OF SHORT, OR, TEMPORARY NATURE (duration)! As in: "Here today and gone tomorrow".

Cheers!

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#156

Post by Gnome »

the use of ephemeral may be wrong, what I was referring to is the feel that can not be described with engineering terms, like silky smooth. or no feel at all as the line shoots/runs like a scalded dog!!

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mer
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#157

Post by mer »

"Ethereal" may be appropriate?

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#158

Post by Gnome »

Thats the word!! Thanks Mike!!

6tUc05
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#159

Post by 6tUc05 »

Yep! That's it!!!

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mer
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#160

Post by mer »

( what was my high school english teacher's name? must send thank you card )

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