Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

This board is for discussing the repair and restoration of bamboo fly rods, makers discussion and construction techniques relating to same. Examples would be different techniques or methods used by restorationists and makers.

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Proofflyfishing
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#161

Post by Proofflyfishing »

Hi everyone,

Harry, I'm glad your guides arrived and I look forward to hearing your thoughts once you get them wrapped in and do a bit of casting. I think your conclusion regarding their weight is right on. Being single foot means less thread and epoxy and pretty much balances out the difference when using traditional snake guides. I have been using the SN guides on longer nymphing rods for a few weeks now and they are great. I have them on a 11' rod with 12 guides and can't tell any weight difference with the guides. The frames on the SN guides I offer are made from stainless steel not titanium so there will be a very slight weight difference, but in such a small guide I think you will only notice if you place them on a jewelers scale.

My offer still stands if anyone is interested in trying the guides out. Please send me an email through my site (you can find it in my signature below). I am offering a discount on a guide set for first time users.
http://www.proofflyfishing.com
Tutorials, cork, reel seats, Snake Brand guides, agate guides...

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#162

Post by Gnome »

Matt

Thanks and that confirms my thoughts that the frames are stainless and not titanium. which explains how they weighed the same as the SiC's I replaced on Mers rod. and as Mike has noted they are slicker and have less friction,

Jeff

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cdmoore
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#163

Post by cdmoore »

Some may find this useful:

Image

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mer
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#164

Post by mer »

Chris, interesting, thanks. The hardness line is interesting, the test is typically "push a point into the surface, depth of indent related to how much force it took to get there, blah blah math" to get a number. So the SiC is "harder" by 9 units than basically the rest. I'm not sure how that relates to coefficient of friction (it may not) which I think would be more important since the line slides across the surface.

Probably means nothing except more ways to overthink fishing.

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#165

Post by Scarfed Mind »

Back to the scrim, if that is not too off topic. I am interested in beefing up a bamboo rod for saltwater use, smaller bonefish and triggerfish, start out with a 7 wt, perhaps doublebuilt, then impregnate and add scrim. Is the scrim merely kevlar thread wrapped and varnished, or is there a more extensive treatment?

GBU31v1
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#166

Post by GBU31v1 »

Scarfed Mind wrote:
08/23/20 16:24
Back to the scrim, if that is not too off topic. I am interested in beefing up a bamboo rod for saltwater use, smaller bonefish and triggerfish, start out with a 7 wt, perhaps doublebuilt, then impregnate and add scrim. Is the scrim merely kevlar thread wrapped and varnished, or is there a more extensive treatment?
I’d say you’d be better off starting a new thread on this with a title that asks the question. A lot of guys have tuned this one out and so few will see your post.

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#167

Post by Gnome »

Scarfed Mind wrote:
08/23/20 16:24
Back to the scrim, if that is not too off topic. I am interested in beefing up a bamboo rod for saltwater use, smaller bonefish and triggerfish, start out with a 7 wt, perhaps doublebuilt, then impregnate and add scrim. Is the scrim merely kevlar thread wrapped and varnished, or is there a more extensive treatment?
Well being as The titan scrim is a gnome trick and part of this thread I will reply being as the question is directed to me. Drawing from my experience with scrims from graphite and glass to one of very few modern makers to do that to bamboo during my Tycoon experiments.

Mirror the wire wrapped Foster and let the kevlar lay flat like floss. Keep the x wraps close and yes finish after. I use UV protected automotive clear coat for shear durability, toughness and protection.

Take a look at the Foster brothers wire wrapped rod in this thread;

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=132088

dont hesitate to PM or call me.

Jeff

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henkverhaar
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#168

Post by henkverhaar »

For what it's worth, for anyone interested in the torzite material itself, I think that US patent 10638739 has more background information. And from what I gather, the 'superior' performance of Torzite silicon nitride is not so much from the direct physical properties of the material, but from the improved manufacturing properties it allows - apparently sintering doped SiN gives much smoother, and stronger (not harder) rings than sintering SiC. Thus allowing for thinner rings (strength) and less friction (smoothness). Again, FWIW

Perusing Kyocera's and Kycocera + Fuji patents is quite interesting...

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cdmoore
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#169

Post by cdmoore »

Henk,

I haven't read the patents, but three key points are consistently mentioned in trade publications from Fuji on the subject of Torzite: the line contact surface shape of the rings; the higher level of polish that can be achieved; and, the improved flexibility & reduced brittleness owing to both the larger, thinner diameter rings and the nature of the material itself. The use of Ti frames and how they contribute probably makes a difference on some level, but I haven't really seen that discussed yet.

Thanks for tracking down and pointing us to the patents. The impact of Kyocera ceramics research and manufacture on the world today must be enormous.

Cheers,

Chris

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henkverhaar
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#170

Post by henkverhaar »

Yeah, the patent also highlights the shape of the inserts and 'layout' of the guides. However, that part actually reads more like a design patent than an invention...

Interestingly the Japanese patent is from 2014, but the identical (as far as I can see) US patent wasn't granted until 2020, even though it was applied for in 2015.

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cdmoore
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Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#171

Post by cdmoore »

That's right, Henk, though I understand the layout concept to have been developed well prior to Torzite, which then maximizes (so far) the benefit and minimizes potential drawbacks, e.g. because it argues for more guides, having lighter frames and rings would be highly beneficial. Here's the overview:

https://anglersresource.net/read/theory ... ncept-ngc/

I can't say they are related, but some of my best casting rods have more guides rather than fewer, typically = rod length in feet plus two guides and a stripper. So an 8'3" rod will have 11 guides total. This guide count-to-casting relation ship does seem to depend a bit on the style of taper.

Cheers,

Chris

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#172

Post by japhy0508 »

So I haven't posted on this thread for a good while, but I did use torzite guides on my most recent build. Sorry folks, graphite for this one but rest assured that my collection is definitely tending towards grass.... Anyways.... The rod in question with an opst head and slick shooter running line.... Oh my.... I'm a very novice skagit caster and was touching 3" deep water across the forks off the Kern without even trying!? The rod is rated 3/4wt. I do really think the guides had a part in it... Just silence while the shooting line ran through the guides. These will absolutely be on my next bamboo rod. I love tradition, and have it with my other sticks, but if you get that much out of 'em, I'm game.

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#173

Post by Gnome »

japhy0508

welcome to the SFIC (Single Foot Iconoclast Club), truly amazing to have a rod that is utterly quiet in the cast, And when you marry the guides with bamboo you get a whole new definition of "Smoooooth"

cheers and congratulations from da cave

Jeff

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#174

Post by japhy0508 »

Thank Gnome......been a long stretch of inactivity on here for me...but going to put these on a Cattanach Dir D blank DS built for me....managed to stretch a little under the ferrule to get 7'3". Looking forward to the build and getting it on the water this spring!!

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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#175

Post by japhy0508 »

Actually I wanted to chime in here a touch wrt weights of the guides in question.....in a relative sense one could say the changes are significant when your frame of reference is the snake guide vs. torzites....then you get into the slightly more nebulous land of less thread and varnish....and the two "starting" to balance out. I pulled out my handy "A Master's Guide to Building A Bamboo Fly Rod", and turned to pages 244 and 256. The difference in grains we are talking about start getting pretty slight when calculating their impact on total moments in the rod. I would hazard to guess how you varnish your rod may have as much impact or more on action because of the surface area the varnish is distributed over? So the idea that the difference in the guides in question is going to significantly alter the rod action seems a pinch optimistic? If you're talking about tip dynamics on rods that have a dry fly action where stresses pop up over the first 1-2' then the additional weight may play some roll locally, but I'd imagine as soon as you get south of the ferrule in a 2 piece rod....things start washing out pretty quickly.....how else can one justify over-sized agate stripping guides? If you are value oriented, stick the Ti framed guides out close to the tip and save some money on the rest and use the stainless?

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#176

Post by Gnome »

A little note from Mr. Mike Remski;

Morning Jeff.
Just a quick update on the Dog Rod. It's been amazing so far this season, now that I'm fishing it on moving water. I'm torn between a DT4 and WF5 on it: DT4 I have to work a little more (light haul) to get it to feel right at shorter distances, the WF5 does more work for me. That's all on me on how lazy I feel with casting.

The Torzite Guides: yes, yes and more yes they are a good thing. I tend to fish more across and down, like swinging soft hackles, so I wind up doing a lot of mending. Let me tell you it's so easy now rolling a loop or two of line. Folks can argue "I don't like the way they look", but can't argue "they don't make a difference".

Thanks for making that rod, and for the upgrade. Sweet got sweeter.

Thanks for the Kudos Mike, means alot!!!

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trland
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#177

Post by trland »

How about a traditional looking stripping guide made from a Torzite/silicon nitride ring?


Image

Image

Image

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ffftroutbum
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#178

Post by ffftroutbum »

That’s pretty awesome. Finding a nice classic striping guide with a Torzite or even a SIC insert is not an easy feat. Are those for sale somewhere?

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trland
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#179

Post by trland »

ffftroutbum wrote:
07/25/21 15:31
That’s pretty awesome. Finding a nice classic striping guide with a Torzite or even a SIC insert is not an easy feat. Are those for sale somewhere?
That’s why I decided to make a few. I haven’t seen them anywhere. I’m just destroying perfectly good guides to get the inserts. This is my first. I’ll make a few more soon from the other inserts shown in the pic.

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Gnome
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Re: Re: Torzite guides/Titan scrim?/Censoring Moderator

#180

Post by Gnome »

:rollin :rollin :rollin :rollin : :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol no friction is awesome the frames will be heavier than the factory frames so losing friction but gaining weight!! curious as to how much time it is taking to salvage and rebuild per guide???? 5 hours?? 10 hours??

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