removing weight from bamboo rods

This board is for discussing the repair and restoration of bamboo fly rods, makers discussion and construction techniques relating to same. Examples would be different techniques or methods used by restorationists and makers.

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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removing weight from bamboo rods

#1

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

gentlemen, . . to what methods and properties will modern rodmakers turn and utilize in order to remove even the slightest amount of weight from their rods and in what areas are these practices focused? generally, what portion of modern rodmakers are concerned with weight reduction? many thanks,

regards, jim w

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cdmoore
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#2

Post by cdmoore »

This may come as no surprise...

Greatest overall weight reduction: butt section. Examples: hollowing, including under the grip and inside reel seat insert; removing 1-2 corks from grip; eliminate swelled butt from taper; change seat insert to a lighter weight option such as all cork or a less dense wood specie; end the blank part way through the seat insert; don't use agate + NS stripping guides; only use cap and ring or double slide bands.

Greatest impact on rod behavior: tip section. Examples: hollowing; reduce guide count by 1-2 guides; single foot guides can be lighter in some cases; file guide feet short and also therefore reduce wrap lengths; reduce tip top tube;

Ferrules: helps both cases. Typical change (any metal type): standard length >>> truncated. More extreme: truncated >>> micro. Switching to glass, carbon or bamboo ferrules may result in further weight reduction, but it depends on the details.

Finish: change from varnish to a sealer of some kind or reduce number of varnish coats. I made some calculations that this change reduces the overall rod weight by approximately the weight of a #14 male micro-ferrule from CSE.

Also, reduce the number of rod sections. This can be very significant for weight reduction.

Hope this helps and hope to see other ideas.

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Tim Anderson
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#3

Post by Tim Anderson »

My rods lost considerable weight when I switched to titanium reel seat hardware. Makes absolutely no difference in the casting properties of the rod, but sure sounds good when comparing to overall weight of other rods :lol

As an aside, the titanium doesn't corrode and can't be easily blackened.

Tim

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CDCdun
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#4

Post by CDCdun »

I used to think weight below the grip doesn’t matter, but then I bought a Hatch 9 plus for a 10 weight fly rod (graphite rod for saltwater). The hatch 9 plus with backing and line weighs about 13 ounces. I have other saltwater reels that weigh about 9 ounces fully loaded and I can tell you the weight is very noticeable. Not so much when you are holding it, but the weight below the grip when casting has to come to a stop, and that requires energy. The more weight, the more energy required. My favorite trout reel is a Sage click, which is ridiculously light. In small trout rods I’m sure the difference is negligible, but I believe taking weight out where you can is worthwhile.

Jake

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#5

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

thanks all, those are excellent responses. i hope to receive similar answers concerning the maximum effort for little gain in weight loss.

regards, jim w

Chased
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#6

Post by Chased »

Dive in to the work of Wayne Macca, he's doing some crazy stuff with resins to achieve super hollow (and still strong) blanks. Jerry Drake here on the forum also has been known to take hollowing to an extreme with his CNC mill.

16pmd
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#7

Post by 16pmd »

cdmoore has almost all of the ways to reduce weight and the effects on deadweight reduction and on casting action. One seemingly minor reduction is using a tiptop without a metal tube - either a single foot wire guide with short foot or a wire loop with the two short legs wrapped on the sides of the tip. That small reduction of weight, because it’s way out at the end of the rod, makes a noticeable difference in casting action on light line rods.

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#8

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

it appears that the butt section is the part most likely to provide weight loss opportunities. shades of eustis edwards, with his tiny handles and reel seats; and thomas, divine and the crew at leonard were apparently doing the same.

the great gain from loss of little weight from smaller tip tops is also noted.

and what percent of current makers are concerned with weight reduction?

regards, jim w

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Brooks
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#9

Post by Brooks »

If you have a chance, visit Tom Morgan Rodsmiths in Bozeman. Their hollow-built planing technology is really something. Their 8’ 3” #6 just blew my mind. Probably too fast for many, but it is the missing rod in my big water arsenal. Really light, quick, and will be my “no excuses” rod (wind, longer casts, bigger flies).

I really like what Jim Reams has done also in hollowbuilt. I have an 8’ 3” for 4 that I love dearly.

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#10

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

hmmmm, it seems that most current makers are concerned with weight reduction, but are very reticent to share their experiences and methods of performing the necessary operations. could this be true?

regards, jim w

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fishbum
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#11

Post by fishbum »

Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:hmmmm, it seems that most current makers are concerned with weight reduction, but are very reticent to share their experiences and methods of performing the necessary operations. could this be true?

regards, jim w
Yep

A few of us have taken the time to take a very detailed look at rod making to get the best performance possible from our material of choice, bamboo. The information you seem to seek is available on this board by using the search function at the bottom of this page.

Good luck with your quest.

Jerry
Last edited by fishbum on 01/04/20 13:25, edited 1 time in total.

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cdmoore
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#12

Post by cdmoore »

CDCdun wrote:I used to think weight below the grip doesn’t matter, but then I bought a Hatch 9 plus for a 10 weight fly rod (graphite rod for saltwater). The hatch 9 plus with backing and line weighs about 13 ounces. I have other saltwater reels that weigh about 9 ounces fully loaded and I can tell you the weight is very noticeable. Not so much when you are holding it, but the weight below the grip when casting has to come to a stop, and that requires energy. The more weight, the more energy required. My favorite trout reel is a Sage click, which is ridiculously light. In small trout rods I’m sure the difference is negligible, but I believe taking weight out where you can is worthwhile.

Jake
Robert Crompton found the same thing when he built (probably the first) casting machine to test his ideas and tapers. His tests showed that heavier reels resulted in loss of accuracy and distance.

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#13

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

cdmoore wrote:
CDCdun wrote:I used to think weight below the grip doesn’t matter, but then I bought a Hatch 9 plus for a 10 weight fly rod (graphite rod for saltwater). The hatch 9 plus with backing and line weighs about 13 ounces. I have other saltwater reels that weigh about 9 ounces fully loaded and I can tell you the weight is very noticeable. Not so much when you are holding it, but the weight below the grip when casting has to come to a stop, and that requires energy. The more weight, the more energy required. My favorite trout reel is a Sage click, which is ridiculously light. In small trout rods I’m sure the difference is negligible, but I believe taking weight out where you can is worthwhile.

Jake
cdc and c d,
in what ways could a maker entice or encourage a purchaser of one of his rods to install on it a lightweight reel in order to potentially, at least, experience more distance, more accuracy,and (in the rodmaker's mind at least), better overall balance ?
regards, jim w

Robert Crompton found the same thing when he built (probably the first) casting machine to test his ideas and tapers. His tests showed that heavier reels resulted in loss of accuracy and distance.

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Tim Anderson
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#14

Post by Tim Anderson »

Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:hmmmm, it seems that most current makers are concerned with weight reduction, but are very reticent to share their experiences and methods of performing the necessary operations. could this be true?
I don't think it's true. Just get a bunch of us rod makers together and we can bore you with any number of details.

Jerry (Fishbum) rightly points out that the search function will find a lot of information for you. For example, check on hollow building. Many types are variations on Winston-style fluting or Powell-style scalloping. Brooks happens to touch on both because Tom Morgan Rodsmiths sells the Morgan Hand Mill which simplifies fluting and Jim Reams uses scalloping for his rods. Chris Moore and 16pmd have indicated how the components chosen can be key to weight reduction.

Just so you don't think this maker is being reticent, I hollow build (Winston-style fluting), use carbon-fiber ferrules, use reel seat inserts just long enough for common reel feet, make grips only 6" long, use thin-wire guides, and use titanium for reel seat hardware, winding check, and tip-top tube. Other makers follow other paths.

Tim

NewUtahCaneAngler
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#15

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

Not a rod maker, but to avoid being tip heavy, I've seen (in fact own one) 8' rods that are actually 7' 9" :rollin

bluesjay
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#16

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, I too think the subject gets quite a lot of attention on the forum. However, I still haven't managed to discover what hollowing system Hardy used on their hollow rods. Of course, it may be nobody knows. What I think would be cool is if the 'heavy reel to balance the rod' guys would 'weigh in' on this.

Jay Edwards

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#17

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

NewUtahCaneAngler wrote:Not a rod maker, but to avoid being tip heavy, I've seen (in fact own one) 8' rods that are actually 7' 9" :rollin
hello,
i have the same problem, i have quite a few f e thomas rods with one or two short tips. . all of them are six inches short. i begin to suspect it was some kind of cult ritual, or something mcclaine or ruark dreamed up in the 40's or 50's. :rollin :rollin :rollin

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Seabowisha Salmo T
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#18

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

fishbum wrote:
Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:hmmmm, it seems that most current makers are concerned with weight reduction, but are very reticent to share their experiences and methods of performing the necessary operations. could this be true?

regards, jim w
Yep

A few of us have taken the time to take a very detailed look at rod making to get the best performance possible from our material of choice, bamboo. The information you seem to seek is available on this board by using the search function at the bottom of this page.

Good luck with your quest.

Jerry
thanks, jerry; i went first to books, forum search, then to "google is your friend" and then i wanted the very latest thinking about the subject. c d and tim listed the items of hardware with which i am most concerned. i hope to determine just how far a builder will go to shave off a tenth or two of an ounce (or a sixteenth) from a finished rod.
regards, jim

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fishbum
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#19

Post by fishbum »

Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:
fishbum wrote:
Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:hmmmm, it seems that most current makers are concerned with weight reduction, but are very reticent to share their experiences and methods of performing the necessary operations. could this be true?

regards, jim w
Yep

A few of us have taken the time to take a very detailed look at rod making to get the best performance possible from our material of choice, bamboo. The information you seem to seek is available on this board by using the search function at the bottom of this page.

Good luck with your quest.

Jerry
thanks, jerry; i went first to books, forum search, then to "google is your friend" and then i wanted the very latest thinking about the subject. c d and tim listed the items of hardware with which i am most concerned. i hope to determine just how far a builder will go to shave off a tenth or two of an ounce (or a sixteenth) from a finished rod.
regards, jim
How about a 9', 9 weight weighing 6 ounces ready to fish. 0.010" wall thickness at the tip, 0.050" at the butt. I could get rid of perhaps another ounce by working on the hardware side of the equation. The rod was made to test a prototype cnc mill that Dennis Bertram was making. I have caught a lot of king salmon and steelhead on this rod and it is still going strong. At the other end of the spectrum is a 6', 2 weight weighing a whopping 1.4 ounce ready to fish. Even that rod has a couple of places that I could reduce the overall weight by a couple tenths of an ounce.

Jerry

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mer
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Re: removing weight from bamboo rods

#20

Post by mer »

Not only Crompton, but Vince Marinaro talks about weight below the grip; I think he actually talks about "put the reel in your pocket and see the difference it makes".

Wasn't it common practice at one point for competition casters to put the line on the ground and cast sans reel?

As a rod "user" not a rod "maker", doesn't it also matter where the reduction is? Tip tops have a longer lever arm from the grip so a little reduction there feels bigger.

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