Can anyone suggest a reason why there are well used 125 year old rods, with no serrations on the ferrules, that have not broken? And I'll make it simpler, why have similarly equipped rods of any vintage not broken? What can we conclude from this? How about rods with no water seals in the ferrules, and their record with delaminating? Is there a direct correlation?
I have a rod that was made between 1882 and 1893 and it was beat to a fare-thee-well. A previous owner beat it so hard that he had to take nails to all the reel seat components to keep them in place. Bet there are 10 nails in the seat. The butt cap was split so there are three more nails in that. The wood underlying the seat and the butt is actually broken underneath the reel seat. Not surprisingly, both tips are down about 4 inches. Pretty fair to say it got some serious use? Guess what? No breaks at the ferrules. No delams. How can that be? Inversely, do ferrule serrations insure freedom from breakage? Do rods with water-sealed ferrules ever delaminate?
Have we been 'overbuilding' our rods with technical features of dubious value for the last 150 years based on anecdotal observations?
Sacrilege for a sunny afternoon
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crowebeetle
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Re: Sacrilege for a sunny afternoon
#3I am not sure any conclusions or corollaries can be made from a statistical sample of 1. Since no one was, probably, keeping records, the failed examples are not around to be included in the data set- only the survivors. Please forgive me if I misunderstood and you were just being rhetorical.
Galt
Galt
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roycestearns
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Re: Sacrilege for a sunny afternoon
#4Such a great question, and there are some records that I'll research this afternoon. I fear they may be inconclusive but maybe something to add to a great conversation.
Re: Sacrilege for a sunny afternoon
#6Mike
It's actually an 11'Acme salmon rod with Wheeler guides that I picked up from Jerry. I have a sneaking suspicion that somebody repurposed it as a trolling rod and then hung bottom.
Crowebeetle
Given enough time I could get the parts together and photograph it, but the breakage in the butt isn't the focus, it's the intact mounting of the ferrules without serrations after being subjected to exceptional stress.
Galt
Yes, I'm posing rhetorical questions. If water can enter through a ferrule and cause a rod to delaminate, why don't we see more delams? I am also going on the assumption that a rod section with delams in the center isn't the result of seepage through a ferrule.
The other question says that my example of a busted rod with plain ferrules didn't break under exception stress. In fact, there seems to be no more breakage at Wheeler ferrule stations than on Leonards of similar vintage. So what did Leonard gain by adding the feature?
Yes, it's anecdotal. But, my cologne repels elephants and their absence for hundreds of miles proves it. In other words, was Leonard having a breakage issue we weren't aware of on his rather soft slow rods, or was he reaching a bit for more sales. It's one of those things that sounds good on paper. I'm wondering if that's all it is. It may be provable that the stresses are better distributed, but unless we could show that it reduced breakage, he put one over on us.
It's actually an 11'Acme salmon rod with Wheeler guides that I picked up from Jerry. I have a sneaking suspicion that somebody repurposed it as a trolling rod and then hung bottom.
Crowebeetle
Given enough time I could get the parts together and photograph it, but the breakage in the butt isn't the focus, it's the intact mounting of the ferrules without serrations after being subjected to exceptional stress.
Galt
Yes, I'm posing rhetorical questions. If water can enter through a ferrule and cause a rod to delaminate, why don't we see more delams? I am also going on the assumption that a rod section with delams in the center isn't the result of seepage through a ferrule.
The other question says that my example of a busted rod with plain ferrules didn't break under exception stress. In fact, there seems to be no more breakage at Wheeler ferrule stations than on Leonards of similar vintage. So what did Leonard gain by adding the feature?
Yes, it's anecdotal. But, my cologne repels elephants and their absence for hundreds of miles proves it. In other words, was Leonard having a breakage issue we weren't aware of on his rather soft slow rods, or was he reaching a bit for more sales. It's one of those things that sounds good on paper. I'm wondering if that's all it is. It may be provable that the stresses are better distributed, but unless we could show that it reduced breakage, he put one over on us.
Re: Sacrilege for a sunny afternoon
#7It seems, to me, that part of your premise is rods that broke at the ferrule or de- laminated would still remain in circulation. Would they not have been repaired or discarded. What would you do today with a rod so afflicted? Either way, I'm not sure they would exist as an example of that which you seek in statistically significant numbers.
Your water seal conjecture is probably as sound as any. As far as serrations vs none, I think you will indeed only receive anecdotal examples unless you wanted to do some testing a-la Bob Milward. and his simulated aging/flex tests.
Galt
Your water seal conjecture is probably as sound as any. As far as serrations vs none, I think you will indeed only receive anecdotal examples unless you wanted to do some testing a-la Bob Milward. and his simulated aging/flex tests.
Galt
Know the reasons for your actions
Re: Sacrilege for a sunny afternoon
#8No question that a scientific study on breakage isn't possible today. Likewise, in the 1870's, there couldn't have been data driving Leonard's patent concepts. I am aware of a Calcutta quality issue in the mid-1870's so perhaps that drove Leonard's patent concepts, if indeed they were his rather than P&P's. Once the material issues were resolved they continued with the patent ferrule marketing and variations of the serration design started popping up, such as Reed's and Varney's. In retrospect, are they really effective or can they go the way of the intermediate wraps?
Does Bob Milward's study shed any light here?
Does Bob Milward's study shed any light here?
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roycestearns
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Re: Sacrilege for a sunny afternoon
#9A review of 16 years of mostly repairs, it appears that broken parts were most often replaced, rather than repaired. Lots of ferrule resets, a number of re glues (were some delams?), some splices done, re wraps happened, interesting stuff. It doesn't really get to Jeff's questions. Here's 16 years mostly done in the May - Sept time frame. I suspect in the off season the new parts were being built.
http://featherclassics.com/docs/repair%20data.pdf
http://featherclassics.com/docs/repair%20data.pdf