reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

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Gnome
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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#21

Post by Gnome »

when cork is dried out it will roll off of itself in little tiny balls, having handled hundreds/thousands of rods I have seen this more than a few times.

as a rod maker I will ask this question;

How smart is it to wrap a tool with the finest natural dampening agent known to man for the handle of the tool when it is intended for a sport based upon feel and the cork can and does take an extremely large portion of that feel and dampens it to where you can not feel as much as with a wooden / solid grip???

and the typical answer is becasue it is tradition or because "It looks right"

I am with you Kevin,

and how do you explain all of the bottles of wine that have went to vinegar because of dried out corks???

Malcolm, so we will ignore the first law of thermodynamics which states all things degrade over time?? glad to know that the laws of physics do not apply to cork. :eek

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archer829
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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#22

Post by archer829 »

I am pretty new to this whole bamboo rod thing, but I have been paying attention, and it seems like there are two and maybe three things going on with respect to ridging on cork handles.

1. Some of the old rods that I've acquired seem to have the ridging only in high wear areas, such as where someone's thumb and forefinger were constantly rubbing during casting. In these cases, the softer cork layers have worn away while the harder cork layers have held their ground. Every other part of these handles is very smooth.

2. A couple of my rods that don't seem to have seen much if any use seem to exhibit an overall shrinkage of alternating layers along the entire length of the handle, rather than wear. It seems like over time, at least with some cork, the "soft" layer just shrinks with age but the "harder" layer stands firm.

3. I think this one is most interesting: I've been fortunate enough to get my hands on two W&M Grangers that had the original wrapper on the handles, and one appears to have been used a bit. Under the wrapper, most of the handle is pristine, BUT there is subtle ridging under the wrapper where the thumb and forefinger would be exerting the greatest compressive force.

So it seems that ridging is caused by at least a combination of compressive forces and abrasive wear, and possibly also due to shrinkage.

Have a great day!
Jeff
Last edited by archer829 on 09/10/20 09:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#23

Post by fishbum »

Gnome wrote:
09/10/20 06:44

Malcolm, so we will ignore the first law of thermodynamics which states all things degrade over time?? glad to
What?

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Gnome
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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#24

Post by Gnome »

everything breaks down over time except for diamonds??!! funny that some think cork is more stable than a diamond. the wrong term used; thermodynamics and wrong law quoted, help me out? what law of physics states that all things degrade over time???

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TimM
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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#25

Post by TimM »

You're thinking of the third law of thermodynamics ... which actually doesn't say that either. :)

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#26

Post by Trout120-1 »

Steaming only takes out small dents. Make sure the heat is directed towards the dent, not elsewhere. You can also use an iron with a damp cloth underneath.

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#27

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, Minwax paste on new rods.......

Jay Edwards

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oddsnrods
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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#28

Post by oddsnrods »

Visit any museum and it will be seen how many natural materials can last( relatively unchanged) for hundreds or even thousands of years, if moisture, light,rot or fire are avoided.

The original question was asking how to avoid cork drying out, as if it were a commonplace occurrence/ problem in rod making.

In our part of the world (Southern Ontario) we have the Canadian Cane rod gathering every two years, which I have been to most of, over the past 20+ years. We give presentations to each other, show and tell and discuss every aspect under the rod-making sun. Not once, to my memory, has the subject of 'drying -up -cork -as -an issue -to -rod -making' been mentioned.

This is not to say that it may not occur, merely that there are more important things to fret over.

By all means cover/ finish your cork with anything if you feel so inclined; some varnish their cork handles as they like to keep that 'new look'. Similarly others prefer to keep the plastic shrink wrap on as they think it will protect the cork, until the water creeps under creating possible issues.

I watched a fellow on You Tube yesterday (two and a half minutes I won't get back..) slathering over his 'nice cork handle' (production, full of filler) some proprietary potion to protect it. OK, if it makes the owner feel better.

Gnome, for some reason your posts reveal a certain unease, manifest in a profound dissatisfaction with bamboo rods generally, as most of us enjoy them. No aspect escapes the often scathing criticism at one time or another - now it is the humble cork handle's turn. Respectfully, I do not accept your views on the subject.

A few years ago I was given quite a few well used, some battered, tired and broken, rods from an exclusive fishing lodge - Hardy.s , Leonards, Paynes, Orvis, F E Thomas and more. Most were in their original bags complete with repair tags from the 1960's. One or two Leonard salmon rods were engraved with dates back to 1914. Some rods were unusable so I stripped them for parts, some discarded altogether.

All of the handles of the Leonards are here pictured, most of the cork still looks pretty good to me. The other photo features an early Hardy greenheart rod handle with a cork sheet covered grip, also still in very good condition, quite probably from the late 1800's. There is a Hardy Wye from the early 60's, plus a little Farlow's Aerial 1950's model and to complete the 'grab bag' is the cork handle of my own cane wading stick which has faithfully lain in the water beside me for many years without any ill effect, to my eye anyway.

Malcolm





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Image

Image
Last edited by oddsnrods on 09/10/20 16:04, edited 1 time in total.

galt
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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#29

Post by galt »

'Preserving' cork handles, to me, seems much like preserving OEM brake linings or tires. Use them; enjoy them and replace them f necessary. If there were a product that preserved cork in pristine condition through use,without changing feel or aesthetics, this thread would not exist.

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#30

Post by GerardH »

Gnome wrote:
09/10/20 06:44

as a rod maker I will ask this question;

How smart is it to wrap a tool with the finest natural dampening agent known to man for the handle of the tool when it is intended for a sport based upon feel and the cork can and does take an extremely large portion of that feel and dampens it to where you can not feel as much as with a wooden / solid grip???

and the typical answer is becasue it is tradition or because "It looks right"

Not a rod builder, but a fly angler who has been fishing with fly rods for 45 years (read consumer/user)...so feel free to take my opinions with a grain of salt.

Cork is functional as it provides better grip and less and fatigue than wood grips all things being equal. I get plenty of feedback through cork of what's happening on the other end of the line and yet it's warmer and I don't experience the slippage I do with wood. Conversely, I find wood grips to be cold, fatiguing, and slippery when wet from weather or perspiration. The hand fatigue becomes more a factor as I get older, so the ergonomics of the grip becomes a more important component when I order a rod.

Rhetorical question: Why have a leather wrapped steering wheel on a high performance sports car versus a metal steering wheel? After all, the leather will dampen the vibrations and reduce feeling of direct feedback from the tires. Ditto with a road bike.

In my opinion, there's a reason cork is the preferred material for grips for well over a century whereas wood grips are a curiosity piece for the most part. And yes, it looks "right".

NewUtahCaneAngler
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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#31

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

Interesting thread here. As a past collector of vintage wines, I've had my share of 25 - 30 year old bottles and I can say for sure that cork does dry out. I've had cork wine stoppers disintegrate and yes, I've had my share of corked (not vinegar, but more like wet newspaper) wine. Since I'm not a chemist, I'm thinking that it dries out the same way wood (isn't cork a type of wood?) or leather does and that is due to moisture and then drying and moisture and then drying (think wood rot), but I have only seen 1 bamboo rod in the 50+ that I've handled over the past 3 years with any sort of what I would call cork rot. What caused this particular rod to show signs when many others did not, I can't say. Humidity of where it was stored for most of its life? Seasonal changes in humidity?

FWIIW, I don't do anything to my cork grips and if they begin to bother me, I'll have a replacement put on by a competent builder. I like figured walnut on SxS shotguns and perhaps reel seats, not fly rod grips (but I've yet to try one and might find that I'd like it if I did). Now neoprene type grips that were popular on spinning rods in the late 70's/early 80's that is another matter altogether.

Tight lines,
Joe

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#32

Post by 6tUc05 »

Jeff...

"and how do you explain all of the bottles of wine that have went [sic] to vinegar because of dried out corks???"

PLEASE PROVIDE scientific references to support this contention! There are many more variables that can be responsible for this occurrence than just "dried out corks". Absent "scientifically collected data", i.e., extensive "controlled" experimentation, to support this contention, it is nothing more than "speculation"; or MYTH!

Cheers!

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#33

Post by Gnome »

oddsnrods wrote:
09/10/20 15:44
Visit any museum and it will be seen how many natural materials can last( relatively unchanged) for hundreds or even thousands of years, if moisture, light,rot or fire are avoided.

The original question was asking how to avoid cork drying out, as if it were a commonplace occurrence/ problem in rod making.

In our part of the world (Southern Ontario) we have the Canadian Cane rod gathering every two years, which I have been to most of, over the past 20+ years. We give presentations to each other, show and tell and discuss every aspect under the rod-making sun. Not once, to my memory, has the subject of 'drying -up -cork -as -an issue -to -rod -making' been mentioned.

This is not to say that it may not occur, merely that there are more important things to fret over.

By all means cover/ finish your cork with anything if you feel so inclined; some varnish their cork handles as they like to keep that 'new look'. Similarly others prefer to keep the plastic shrink wrap on as they think it will protect the cork, until the water creeps under creating possible issues.

I watched a fellow on You Tube yesterday (two and a half minutes I won't get back..) slathering over his 'nice cork handle' (production, full of filler) some proprietary potion to protect it. OK, if it makes the owner feel better.

Gnome, for some reason your posts reveal a certain unease, manifest in a profound dissatisfaction with bamboo rods generally, as most of us enjoy them. No aspect escapes the often scathing criticism at one time or another - now it is the humble cork handle's turn. Respectfully, I do not accept your views on the subject.

A few years ago I was given quite a few well used, some battered, tired and broken, rods from an exclusive fishing lodge - Hardy.s , Leonards, Paynes, Orvis, F E Thomas and more. Most were in their original bags complete with repair tags from the 1960's. One or two Leonard salmon rods were engraved with dates back to 1914. Some rods were unusable so I stripped them for parts, some discarded altogether.

All of the handles of the Leonards are here pictured, most of the cork still looks pretty good to me. The other photo features an early Hardy greenheart rod handle with a cork sheet covered grip, also still in very good condition, quite probably from the late 1800's. There is a Hardy Wye from the early 60's, plus a little Farlow's Aerial 1950's model and to complete the 'grab bag' is the cork handle of my own cane wading stick which has faithfully lain in the water beside me for many years without any ill effect, to my eye anyway.

Malcolm





Image

Image

Image
Malcolm respectfully I can not believe you either a 30 year maker with what 50 rods or less under your belt in that time frame as you have stated here?? and I have been a proponent of non-cork grips for 2 decades and I have been very verbal about it, here and other places. after you have turned say 20,000 cork grips which is well less than half of my experience making cork grips come and lets have a talk about cork. And I would love to see bamboo continue on and compete with the other materials and to do that we need to make it perform better IMHO and we can not do that if we hold to the "It looks right / bound by tradition view of a bamboo rod which in my view is holding it back and this could lead to the end of it.

and how about the personal experience shown here;

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler » 09/11/20 02:42

Interesting thread here. As a past collector of vintage wines, I've had my share of 25 - 30 year old bottles and I can say for sure that cork does dry out.

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#34

Post by GerardH »

Gnome wrote:
09/10/20 21:34
And I would love to see bamboo continue on and compete with the other materials and to do that we need to make it perform better IMHO and we can not do that if we hold to the "It looks right / bound by tradition view of a bamboo rod which in my view is holding it back and this could lead to the end of it.
I'm still confused as to whether what you're proposing is a solution looking for a problem. By way of your reckoning, shouldn't the graphite and fiberglass rod manufacturers also be pushing wood grips in lieu of cork? If as you say: "It looks right / bound by tradition view of a bamboo rod which in my view is holding it back and this could lead to the end of it." would imply all rod manufacturers need to switch over to wood to ensure their survival.

Obviously the market is saying otherwise and it should be the end user that dictates what material is used...as of now, cork seems to be preferred over wood and there are several good reasons for that besides aesthetics and tradition.

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#35

Post by 6tUc05 »

"Interesting thread here. As a past collector of vintage wines, I've had my share of 25 - 30 year old bottles and I can say for sure that cork does dry out."


Sorry, but this is purely anecdotal information. That and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee in most all of the restaurants in this country that I am personally familiar with.

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#36

Post by Doug K »

oddsnrods wrote:
09/10/20 15:44
the cork handle of my own cane wading stick which has faithfully lain in the water beside me for many years without any ill effect, to my eye anyway.
that is wonderful, both the cane wading staff and the well-preserved cork..

my idea is to keep it cool, let dry when wet, keep it out of the sun, hot attics or garages.. and have some rods I built forty years ago, fished steadily ever since, and the (cheap) cork is still as good as the day I built it, though a bit darkened by time and chance which happen to us all..

cork can dry out.. Chateau Lafite-Rothschild recommends re-corking every 25-30 years.
"Re-corking is important to the health of wine because old corks can dry up and allow air to seep in."
Young as I am, I've had wines go bad when the cork degenerated and let the air in. Now it's odd come to think of it, the rod handles have held up perfectly well, where a wine cork that just had to sit there in a cool basement, went bad.

never heard of any way to recondition cork. If it gets bad, rebuild ..

new spin or baitcasting rods, often have gaps in the handle or below the reelseat, which purport to be 'more sensitive' than the plain old cork handles of yore. I haven't bought into that yet.

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#37

Post by DonT »

Just caught up with this thread, and will rush in where angels might fear to tread.... So the second law of thermodynamics is what folks were referencing above. The equation can be looked up but the law simply states that there is a heat content to disorder and that's all it states. Now, there are a bunch of implications of this, one of them being that disorder is increasing in the universe as a whole. However, another implication is that it takes energy to establish or maintain order (thankfully, or none of us would be here...), so in a closed, defined system, disorder is not always increasing, in fact order can be imposed and maintained by energy being put into the system. Anyway the assertion that entropy applies to the cork is close to the mark since the order in cork was established by the plant using sunlight, but it is very slowly going to be degraded by oxygen and maybe dehydration but it's history, how it was used and stored etc. etc is really going to matter as to how fast this will happen. There isn't really any way of putting it back together that I know of except for burning it and feeding the CO2 back to the tree again..... ;)
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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#38

Post by oddsnrods »

Bunch 'o tosh...but maybe that's the idea...

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Re: reconditioning dry cork, and prevention?

#39

Post by penta-spey »

Comparing wine corks to cork fly rod handles does not make sense.
Two different environments exposed to two different liquids, gases and pressures and we're drawing parallels?
I'm not sold.

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