Name brand rods.........?

[kermit]

I'm in the process of reconditioning a top quality name brand fly rod from the 40's. At the time it was one of the best to be had. On the antique rod market it demands high dollar. If you made that same rod today using the same construction of bamboo and components, you would not be happy with it. I have reconditioned several of these rods of different top name brand makers of the past. I think some of the best rods ever made are the rods being made today.

[DUCKMANNM]

Kermit, You are 100% correct! The older stuff, no matter who made them, did not have the modern tools and products, especially the glues and varnishes that we use today. I refurbish a lot of OLD bamboo rods too, and even the name brand rods can not compare with todays products being turned out. Their quality is never the issue, but today we have much better threads, glues, varnishes, and hardware. Can you imagine how those old brand name rods would look now if they had had that stuff?

[steeliefool]

If you lived in the 40s, you would have loved it!
Apples and oranges

[Gnome]

Bull Carp!!! the quality of the rods by Thaddeus Norris blows that out of the water as does the work of Murphy and Krider and Hiram Leonard and many others including Orvis and Garrison. And add to that list all of the rods made in the '40s and 50s and beyond that were glued up with resorcinol. Hard to make that claim when the modern rods do not have the track record of the past masters and how well their work has held up over a period of 170-50 years.

And new thread?? most bamboo rod makers still use silk and that is far from new (it was the thread for well over 160 years), Just like the use of agate guides (the idea was patented in 1863) which have an extreme Achilles heel when used hard they wear out due to the softness of the agate (7 0n the Mohs scale). The best glue available (IMHO) is a glue used by some of the past masters and yet it is mostly ignored due to its purple glue lines because makers don't like how it "Looks"). Even though it is one of the best we have available to us and have had available for 70 years or so), think about how it is one of only one or two glues approved for building wooden airplanes. Better hardware? Yes! if you are open to using some of the new hardware like lined guides etc. snake guides do not fall into the new hardware category.

You are comparing bench built one at a time, to mass-produced get them out the door production, not a fair comparison. Low Numbers versus High Production numbers. Apples and oranges, steelifool nailed it !!!

[jeffkn1]

Kermit

Can you tell us the name of the high end maker?

[kermit]

PM sent

[mer]

This is interesting, because it's like sports. Greatest Of All Time. Take a sport dependent on equipment, say Bicycle Road Racing. Eddie Mercx is one bandied about as the GOAT. Others will say Coppi or Bartali. Some may even go back further in time. Hard to say, but it is known each one was the GOAT of his time. Bicycles changed: put Mercx in his prime on a modern carbon fiber aero bike? What would he have done, how long would his career been? Coppi, Anqetiul? Would have been unbelievable.

Now the rods that Kermit is talking about. For their time they were the GOAT. Comparing them to todays standard is "apples and oranges". I'd posit the better question is: what would they have made give today's knowledge and materials?

Jeff's example of Norris: what would he have made today?
Jim Payne, Dickerson, Gillium, what would they have made?

[kermit]

IMHO - On some name brand rods from the past, I'm talking about the over all construction, cane quality, node spacing, fit and finish etc. Even if you had these rods untouched and new in the box, the overall quality is just not up to par with the rods I see at the rod makers gatherings today. Apples and Oranges....I'll take the Peach!

[mer]

IMHO - I'm talking about the over all construction, cane quality, node spacing, fit and finish etc. Even if you had these rods untouched and new in the box, the overall quality is just not up to par with the rods I see at the rod makers gatherings today. Apples and Oranges....I'll take the Peach!

Heh.
I guess it's "did they do the best with what they had available at that point in time"?
Take glues. If all they had was hide glue, it's unfair to compare to a rod being made with epoxy. But if they did better with hide glue than others at the same time, that's a good thing.
I'd guess that process control is better now: an adjustable steel planing form is better than wooden fixed planing blocks. Measuring tapers to the 1/64 inch is different than a micrometer to 0.0001 inch.
So compare to similar price points of the same era.

To me, I think the "why did they do this" and how it inspired others (at the same time and later) to continue and evolve.
The book on Vince Marinaro, the rod tests. Some of the comments I think are spot on with what I am trying to convey. The testers had a preformed opinion about how the rods would feel and comments were often "how'd he do that?". The two-hander rod: "I want to be able to ask Vince What possessed you to make this?".

So yes, the bar has been raised. Some of that is because the customers become more demanding and the craft lets the maker get there. Comparisons over the eras are always interesting.

[Gnome]

You can not compare one at a time bench built with production. And just how many high-volume production makers are there at the gatherings?, which I have been going to a wee bit longer than Kermit has and that is two different animals. Kermit could you produce a high-quality rod/rods at the rate of 35-55 a month? if you can do this I would admit you are right. I do not believe that can or will happen. Comparing your work to the maker's work you are being very critical of; could you produce as many rods at your quality as they produced, which seems to be what you are saying?? The amateur semi-pro is way better than the masters of the past???

And just how many mint original Kriders have you handled? his work is as good and better than 98% of the rod makers today! Or the work of Hiram Leonard himself. To say their work is sub-par to today's makers is an insult and shows an extreme lack of knowledge of high-quality rods from the mid to late 1800s. IMHO

the node spacing on Murphy's rods is absolutely immaculate as is the early work of Hiram Leonard. I hate blanket statements as kermit made, they show a lack of knowledge of those who have gone before us. and comparing a 1 man shop to production facility work is not a fair example or comparison in my book. And that is what he is doing.

[kermit]

IMHO - Google it up

[galt]

Hey Kermit,
You start this thread with a generalized statement alluding to specific details that you do not elaborate or exemplify to support your opinion and then tell us to "Google it up". Huh????????

Galt

[jeffkn1]

I've seen high end rods with random node spacing, glue lines, and varnish issues but the irregularities were infrequent and, I felt, not representative of the marques.
Some processes may now be done with greater accuracy or with somewhat more durable components but earlier makers sometimes used tooling they made themselves. I think they made improvements when they could do so while remaining competitive and still deliver in a reasonable time period. Had they charged significant deposits up front and required long waiting periods, who knows what their rods would have ended up like? I'm not sure they would have performed better or lasted longer.
The same debates occur at gun collector and car enthusiast forums. Hindsight is 20/20.

[Short Tip]

Hi Kermit, I'm sure there's some truth to the idea that the "best" rods are being made today. But folks will still pay more for a neat evocative old car than they will for a new Camry, when it's easy to "prove" that the Camry is "better" in every way. Also, when you say "Name Brand", it's helpful if you specify the brand. Payne and Montague were both name brand rods, but there is some daylight between them.

[quashnet]

When you stand on the shoulders of giants, it's considered bad form to spit in their ear.

[mer]

Hey Kermit,
You start this thread with a generalized statement alluding to specific details that you do not elaborate or exemplify to support your opinion and then tell us to "Google it up". Huh????????

Galt

I believe the google it up was directly referring to the "IMHO" bit, basically a little poke at Jeff. Not a mean spirited or evil poke, just "Hey Jeff, you may want to add IMHO to your post".

[LeeO]

It is going to be a long winter

[Gnome]

You can not compare one at a time bench built with production. And just how many high-volume production makers are there at the gatherings?, which I have been going to a wee bit longer than Kermit has and that is two different animals. Kermit could you produce a high-quality rod/rods at the rate of 35-55 a month? if you can do this I would admit you are right. I do not believe that can or will happen. Comparing your work to the maker's work you are being very critical of; could you produce as many rods at your quality as they produced, which seems to be what you are saying?? The amateur semi-pro is way better than the masters of the past???

And just how many mint original Kriders have you handled? his work is as good and better than 98% of the rod makers today! Or the work of Hiram Leonard himself. To say their work is sub-par to today's makers is an insult and shows an extreme lack of knowledge of high-quality rods from the mid to late 1800s. IMHO

the node spacing on Murphy's rods is absolutely immaculate as is the early work of Hiram Leonard. I hate blanket statements as kermit made, they show a lack of knowledge of those who have gone before us. and comparing a 1 man shop to production facility work is not a fair example or comparison in my book. And that is what he is doing.

edit, Yep Google knows more than anyone here? and I reposted with the IMHO in bold and italic and underlined in the repost, it was there already. All the machinery and specialized tools in the world will never replace God-given talent. If Kermit wants to inspect some of the rods I mentioned he could by visiting the GTRS. And I asked Kermit some questions that were conveniently ignored. Can he produce with his quality at the rate the makers he did not mention by name did with their rods???

Once again comparing bench built rods to production facility rods is like comparing a supercar to an off the shelf production vehicle and it is not a fair comparison considering the production rod was made to support individuals livelihood (like food and shelter and all of the incidentals life requires) and that is completely different from a retired person doing bamboo rods as a hobby and not having to support themselves with what they produce. In that instance comparing production to bench built is truly an unfair comparison.

long winter? Yep if I see BS I will call it out. And prove my point like others seem unwilling to do when asked.

[kermit]

Edict #1 - From the Department of GroupThink…Hear ye! Hear ye!

Although the Minister of Propaganda (MoP) has been personally attacked on this forum in a most craven, hurtful manner, My Puppet Masters (MPM) forbids me from responding to the naysaying demoralizers among you without express permission. We are now happy to report that MPM has granted its official approval of this message.

Such consent comes only after much discussion, flipping of coins, throwing of Runes and drawing of cards. Having now conducted these sacred rituals, the Department of GroupThink (DoGT), of which it has been my honor to administer, has now been sanctioned in issuing “Edict #1”:

BE IT KNOWN that my attention was first drawn to a Particularly Demoralizing Individual (PDI) after the PDI in question engaged into my fair and peaceful thread. This PDI began laying siege to my calm by creating an initial dust-up on this very forum by expressing extreme outrage.

BE IT ALSO KNOWN that during that tirade, the indignant PDI demanded of me to prove my beliefs. I feel the PDI has no such authority, but the PDI went off looking for another issue with which to garner more attention. Such an opportunity came just moments later. Visitors to this forum endured a barrage of vitriolic insults intended by the PDI which puts the entire community to shame.

BE IT FURTHER KNOWN that the attention drawn over the incident was not sufficient to the PDI, who then quickly embroiled itself into yet another issue. Not content to just insult the general population, the PDI began revealing this to the MoP. The character assassinations and half-truths issued by the PDI seems to have produced its desired effect as the PDI now smugly basks in the glow of notoriety and controversy conflagrated by itself.

THEREFORE, By the Powers Vested in the MoP, LET IT BE KNOWN that all will be revealed in due time and once this controversy evaporates, as all the ones previously have, the PDI will find itself slithering off once again in desperate search of further outrage, intrigue and insults.

MPM and everyone here in the DoGT offers sincere condolences for the upset suffered by this community created through these vile efforts of our most recent PDI.

Faithfully submitted by yours truly, the Minister of Propaganda and the Department of Group Think. Your humble servant, kermit.

In the meantime, your eyes are getting sleepy. Very, very sleepy.

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

aaaah, the long, slow curve; an then . . . the fast break! masterfully done! send me your paynes, your leonards, your f e thomases yearning to be fished.

regards, jim w