Custom Ferrule Manufacture

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StePhDen
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Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#1

Post by StePhDen »

Hi All,

I'm looking to have some custom ferrules made to hopefully solve the twisting problem associated with bamboo Spey rods.

To put it simply I'm hoping to make an interlocking ferrule that has a tongue and groove situated inside the ferrule. The idea being that the tongue and groove will prevent twisting and the ferrule can otherwise be lapped to have snug but not overly tight fit. I realize most modern ferrules are machined from bar stock and that making these tongue and groove joints using that method will be difficult if not impossible. I was looking at the patent diagram for the super-Z ferrule in the Garrison book. I noticed that the female ferrule appears to be simply a male ferrule with a shroud fitted/secured that extends beyond the "male" end to accept the male ferrule. My thought was that a set of ferrules could be made using this old method but the ends of ferrules could have the groove/tongue machined into them before the grooved ferrule has the tubing permanently fixed around it. I've attached a CAD drawing that hopefully makes my concept clear.

I have heard on this forum that "locking ferrules" exist. I have not been able to find them (though I haven't looked very hard). If something like what I'm describing already exists I'd love to get my hands on them. Otherwise is there anybody who would be interested in helping me realize this concept? I don't yet have a lathe/mill otherwise I would buy some bar stock and give it a try myself.

I am aware of the ferrule/scarfing debate. For this project I will need to use ferrules.

Cheers,

Stephen

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Booman2
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#2

Post by Booman2 »

I'd google Hardy's old "bayonet" ferrules. They were clunky, but worked. Plus, they look cool.

StePhDen
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#3

Post by StePhDen »

Booman2 wrote:I'd google Hardy's old "bayonet" ferrules. They were clunky, but worked. Plus, they look cool.
They look interesting, I can’t seem to find anyone who is selling any.


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Paul B
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#4

Post by Paul B »

They were that good they stopped making them .
Done for a reason , you had to twist or torque up the rod to get the ferrule to mate correctly, not a good practice for rod longevity ;)

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Mike McGuire
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#5

Post by Mike McGuire »

It's not at all unusual to have to tape ferrules on graphite spey and switch rods to prevent twisting induced by spey casts. Why make a fuss about taping metal ferrules on bamboo rods. Just do it and get on with your life. As it is, if you don't make them yourself, you will have enough of a problem sourcing the large conventional ferrules you will need to make a spey rod.

Mike
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Palakona123
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#6

Post by Palakona123 »

I’m working on an old Hardy rod from the 1890s that had this type of ferrule. The old ferrules needed to be replaced, so I contacted a british rod - maker that made me some.
I think I payed about £130. (The rod is a 3 piece with 3 tips)
I can’t really se how it should stop the sections from rotating though. They stopped using this type of ferrule in the 40s, and I think that was becuse it didn’t have any effect. They work just as good (or bad) as any other ferrule.
For spey rods you should look at the «studlock» and the «lockfast»
The «lockfast» type of ferrule work quite well on spey rods, but it depends on which way you twist the rod while casting. Some time in the 20s or 30s they changed the direction, as most anglers twisted to one side. Unfortunately they changed it to the wrong way for me....
On my older rods it works very well, the sections never twists, even with worn ferrules. On the newer rods the sections twists, but you can’t cast a section off at least.
The «studlock» was not very common, but I have only heard good things about it, and the sections will always be aligned. If you could get one of these type of ferrules made, I think it will fix the problem.

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BigTJ
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#7

Post by BigTJ »

Consider graphite ferrules instead. Very light and strong and pretty easily made yourself. They take the shape of the rod section so they can’t twist.

If you are dead set on metal ferrules try Tony Young. He is an incredible machinist and probably the nicest and most thoughtful guy you will ever come across. Google avyoung or search the archives here.

You could also try fishbum (Jerry) on this board he makes metal ferrules for 2 handers although I am not sure he is still making them for others.

Mike is 100% right. Get a spool of Renfrew clear hockey tape and ditch the bayonet ferrule idea. Tony can make you some really nice and quite strong duronze ferrules for a reasonable price. He could make the bayonet or studlock ferrules but they would cost more - not worth it.

Good luck,

John

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jan96
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#8

Post by jan96 »

Some years ago I restored a Hardy LRH Greased Line 13'. It had ferrules with a "button", never seen before! The intention why using such complicated construction ferrules is preventing rotating the section during spey casting...
r :)
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samsonboi
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#9

Post by samsonboi »

what about integrated bamboo ferrules?
"Car ce n'est pas assez d'avoir l'esprit bon, mais le principal est de l'appliquer bien.”- Descartes

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jan96
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#10

Post by jan96 »

samsonboi wrote:
11/18/20 13:27
what about integrated bamboo ferrules?
Regarding the bamboo ferrules I think better option are "sleeve" ferrules. In case of breakage they can be replaced, "integrated" can't... ;)
r :)
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samsonboi
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#11

Post by samsonboi »

Yes and no- if they both were subjected to stress in excess of both their breaking strengths, they will both probably break at the same point- that is, near where the reinforcement ends. This will shorten the cane with either method, and you will end up having to replace the ferrule and make it longer- you can replace a broken integrated ferrule very easily with a sleeve ferrule. And because you are introducing another glue bond, that is one more thing that could *possibly* go wrong. And that is in a particularly high-stress area.

The sleeve ferrule is a good method if you don't have the tooling to make integrated ferrules (I love my Morgan Hand Mill, it seems like it can do anything including integrated ferrules), but sleeve ferrules are not "better" than the integrated. My personal vote goes to the integrated ferrule because it seems like it will be stronger, being an integrated part of the bamboo- and it's just as easily replaced, and much more simple to make. Opinions differ and I'm a relatively new maker compared to a lot of the old hands here, but just my $0.02.

StePhDen- If you really want a non-rotating METAL ferrule, make yourself some Langer&Langer Doublesix style ferrules. Just add a welt on the female hexagon and you've got a good design on your hands.
"Car ce n'est pas assez d'avoir l'esprit bon, mais le principal est de l'appliquer bien.”- Descartes

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jan96
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#12

Post by jan96 »

samsonboi wrote:
11/18/20 15:11
Yes and no- if they both were subjected to stress in excess of both their breaking strengths, they will both probably break at the same point- that is, near where the reinforcement ends. This will shorten the cane with either method, and you will end up having to replace the ferrule and make it longer- you can replace a broken integrated ferrule very easily with a sleeve ferrule. And because you are introducing another glue bond, that is one more thing that could *possibly* go wrong. And that is in a particularly high-stress area.

The sleeve ferrule is a good method if you don't have the tooling to make integrated ferrules (I love my Morgan Hand Mill, it seems like it can do anything including integrated ferrules), but sleeve ferrules are not "better" than the integrated. My personal vote goes to the integrated ferrule because it seems like it will be stronger, being an integrated part of the bamboo- and it's just as easily replaced, and much more simple to make. Opinions differ and I'm a relatively new maker compared to a lot of the old hands here, but just my $0.02.

StePhDen- If you really want a non-rotating METAL ferrule, make yourself some Langer&Langer Doublesix style ferrules. Just add a welt on the female hexagon and you've got a good design on your hands.
I'm also relatively new in making spey rods, I made only three of them. All with "sleeve" ferrules. So, I have no experience with integrated bamboo ferrules on long, over 12 feet rods and as you said they are probably better choice..
Langer&Langer hex metal ferrules... They are not very easy to make I suppose...
r :)

Brier549
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#13

Post by Brier549 »

You should reach out to Bob Hallowell ( bobha) on this site , his fiberglass ferrules might be what you need.

StePhDen
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#14

Post by StePhDen »

Seeing as this is my second rod build ever, I went ahead and ordered standard super-z’s from Dave at rush river rods. I’ll do the tape and keep it simple. Lots of good ideas here ill keep them in mind for future builds!


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samsonboi
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#15

Post by samsonboi »

jan96 wrote:
11/18/20 16:29
samsonboi wrote:
11/18/20 15:11
Yes and no- if they both were subjected to stress in excess of both their breaking strengths, they will both probably break at the same point- that is, near where the reinforcement ends. This will shorten the cane with either method, and you will end up having to replace the ferrule and make it longer- you can replace a broken integrated ferrule very easily with a sleeve ferrule. And because you are introducing another glue bond, that is one more thing that could *possibly* go wrong. And that is in a particularly high-stress area.

The sleeve ferrule is a good method if you don't have the tooling to make integrated ferrules (I love my Morgan Hand Mill, it seems like it can do anything including integrated ferrules), but sleeve ferrules are not "better" than the integrated. My personal vote goes to the integrated ferrule because it seems like it will be stronger, being an integrated part of the bamboo- and it's just as easily replaced, and much more simple to make. Opinions differ and I'm a relatively new maker compared to a lot of the old hands here, but just my $0.02.

StePhDen- If you really want a non-rotating METAL ferrule, make yourself some Langer&Langer Doublesix style ferrules. Just add a welt on the female hexagon and you've got a good design on your hands.
I'm also relatively new in making spey rods, I made only three of them. All with "sleeve" ferrules. So, I have no experience with integrated bamboo ferrules on long, over 12 feet rods and as you said they are probably better choice..
Langer&Langer hex metal ferrules... They are not very easy to make I suppose...
r :)
Yeah, you have to make them yourself or pay exorbitant prices for someone to make them. I can’t afford to do either ;)
"Car ce n'est pas assez d'avoir l'esprit bon, mais le principal est de l'appliquer bien.”- Descartes

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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#16

Post by avyoung »

Mike McGuire wrote:
11/17/20 16:48
It's not at all unusual to have to tape ferrules on graphite spey and switch rods to prevent twisting induced by spey casts. Why make a fuss about taping metal ferrules on bamboo rods. Just do it and get on with your life. As it is, if you don't make them yourself, you will have enough of a problem sourcing the large conventional ferrules you will need to make a spey rod.

Mike
I can make ferrules bigger than there are rods to mount them on! :)

tony

www.avyoung.com

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mer
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#17

Post by mer »

avyoung wrote:
11/19/20 03:18
Mike McGuire wrote:
11/17/20 16:48
It's not at all unusual to have to tape ferrules on graphite spey and switch rods to prevent twisting induced by spey casts. Why make a fuss about taping metal ferrules on bamboo rods. Just do it and get on with your life. As it is, if you don't make them yourself, you will have enough of a problem sourcing the large conventional ferrules you will need to make a spey rod.

Mike
I can make ferrules bigger than there are rods to mount them on! :)

tony

www.avyoung.com
You can get NS in 36inch diameter? :)

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avyoung
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#18

Post by avyoung »

mer wrote:
11/19/20 05:46
avyoung wrote:
11/19/20 03:18
Mike McGuire wrote:
11/17/20 16:48
It's not at all unusual to have to tape ferrules on graphite spey and switch rods to prevent twisting induced by spey casts. Why make a fuss about taping metal ferrules on bamboo rods. Just do it and get on with your life. As it is, if you don't make them yourself, you will have enough of a problem sourcing the large conventional ferrules you will need to make a spey rod.

Mike
I can make ferrules bigger than there are rods to mount them on! :)

tony

www.avyoung.com
You can get NS in 36inch diameter? :)
NS is so 19th century. I use nickel aluminium bronze. Lighter, stronger, faster, better.
I have it up to 25mm dia on hand, can get it to 127mm dia if you want. Costs at that size though ;)

tony

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mer
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#19

Post by mer »

Hmm. A 6 ft 4wt with a 127mm dia ferrule. I guess it'd be a tip actioned rod, no?

mrampant
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Re: Custom Ferrule Manufacture

#20

Post by mrampant »

The ferrule is there just for the swing weight >:D
Cheers,
Mark
He who shall not be able to make a trout fly, after studying these diagrams and directions, must be deficient either in brains or in manual dexterity. : Edward Fitzgibbon 1853

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