3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

This board is for discussing the repair and restoration of bamboo fly rods, makers discussion and construction techniques relating to same. Examples would be different techniques or methods used by restorationists and makers.

Moderator: Titelines

AlexP
Master Guide
Posts: 380
Joined: 08/29/19 14:18
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#21

Post by AlexP »

OldCane: Although a good thought, I do not twist. I follow all the rules for caring for bamboo.
Cdmore: If I am outside 3 standard deviations from the mean, I hope I stopped at 3 rods. I have another 10 bamboo rods.

To ted patien and red 1, I am guessing I was casting 20 or 25 ft of line at most. All my lines are WF.

I should had included this link related to the unknown maker rod that I broke in my first post. Long post, but you can see photos and a few opinions. This one might be more poor construction than user error?

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=132278&p=891834&hi ... wn#p891834

Thanks

ShenRods
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1035
Joined: 02/19/07 19:00

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#22

Post by ShenRods »

I think it maybe a much more fundamental and basic issue that is missed here. How does he put the rod together and take it apart. Done improperly, that is the primary cause of broken rods at the ferrules and not casting itself. Remember the old adage/saying: Hands Close Together when Put Together, Hands Far apart when taking apart".

Stressing the cane at ferrules when assembling or disassembling a rod will cause them to break more than anything else, They may break during casting but the real damage was done in assembly and disassembly, I warn ask my customers about this and never assume they know the correct way.

I believe this is the real culprit. BTW I have had Mike McFarland cast rods and with his ultimate power stroke he has not broken a rod yet. So let's go back to the basics.

Chris

AlexP
Master Guide
Posts: 380
Joined: 08/29/19 14:18
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#23

Post by AlexP »

ShenRods wrote:
09/09/21 12:17
I think it maybe a much more fundamental and basic issue that is missed here. How does he put the rod together and take it apart.
I put rods together properly. Never twist, good hands position. If the ferrules are too tight, I use rubber strips to get a solid grip and that does the trick without bending or putting extreme pressure.

What I know for sure, the chances of me test casting the rod of anybody that has read this thread are none. All of you would run away with your rods if you saw me by the river. :D

ShenRods
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1035
Joined: 02/19/07 19:00

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#24

Post by ShenRods »

I put rods together properly.
I would not assume that if I were you after 3 broken rods at the ferrule station. You obviously are doing something wrong that stresses the cane at the ferrule. You need to have an experienced rod maker watch you do it and critique/correct your technique. This is where the fundamental problem lies.

I have watched guys put together rods that have absolutely made me cringe who all thought they were doing it properly and correctly. This simple act can/will put far more inappropriate stresses on a rod at the ferrule station than any amount of bad casting can do.

User avatar
Caneghost
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1185
Joined: 06/15/13 18:51
Location: Hancock, NY
Contact:

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#25

Post by Caneghost »

I suggest you have a rod maker check the rods for damage. I have broken a few myself, at the ferrule, and each time a fault was discovered, particularly in older rods, there was evidence of moisture having penetrated the bamboo and deteriorating it over time. Recently an Orvis was found to have an old fracture beneath the ferrule wraps that was not evident prior to removing the wrap. The cane had turned black from moisture damage.

If you are overzealous in your casting, you can stress the wraps at the cane to metal junction and they will separate a bit. All you may see is a fine crack in the varnish. If water seeps in trouble is in your future. Granger rods seem to be known for developing those cracks in the varnish, and I take special care of mine in light of that.

Rod makers differ in technique, and it seems some remove more bamboo than others to set ferrules. That can turn into a problem if you stress the rod a lot in some cases. I had one break because a hole for a ferrule pin was drilled off center. The off centered pin apparently stressed the cane unevenly from the inside, and one day...snap.
...a wink of gold like the glint of sunlight on polished cane...

brightwatercatskill.art.blog

User avatar
LeeO
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1602
Joined: 06/11/08 18:00
Location: Charleston WV
Contact:

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#26

Post by LeeO »

I’ve only had one rod break at a ferrule station. It was a cheap restoration and it was clearly water damage.
Lee Orr
304 Rod Company

http://www.304rodcompany.com

User avatar
Seabowisha Salmo T
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1330
Joined: 01/15/07 19:00

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#27

Post by Seabowisha Salmo T »

AlexP wrote:
09/07/21 12:50
Hello All,

I have been fishing bamboo for the last three years. I have a number of rods and I like to fish them all. Some get more attention, but if a rod has not been fished for a couple months, I get it out. In these three years three have broken the same way. I have started fishing and within 5 minutes of casting one of the sections snapped:

- Unknown rod from the big auction house, 5 wt, 2/2, broke right below the female ferrule. Not fixed.
- Bill Critchfield 3 wt, 2/2, broke right below the female ferrule. Bill fixed it by extending the grip without compromising the length, great job. I like it even more now.
- Dennis Stone 3 wt, 4/2, I finished this rod from Dennis' blank. This one broke yesterday, in the second section male ferrule. Dennis is going to take a look and see if he can fix it. Another great rod.

Any theories as to why the rods broke? Is it just bad luck? Could be my casting? I take care of the rods. Before getting hooked on bamboo, I fished graphite for over 20 years and never broken a rod while casting. The ones that I broke were accidents due to my own negligence (don't put a rod on the bed of your truck with a 10 year old jumping in it).

Wondering what people opinions are. I have multiple rods by Bill and Dennis and love casting them. I don't want to be paranoid every time I go fishing. Just bad luck would probably be the best option.

Tight Lines
alex, what is the average weight of the largest fish you are ordinarily catching? i am getting a feeling you are undergunned with the three weights and had bad bamboo or a bad fit on the five weight.
regards, jim w

AlexP
Master Guide
Posts: 380
Joined: 08/29/19 14:18
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#28

Post by AlexP »

Seabowisha Salmo T wrote:
09/10/21 11:55
alex, what is the average weight of the largest fish you are ordinarily catching? i am getting a feeling you are undergunned with the three weights and had bad bamboo or a bad fit on the five weight.
regards, jim w
Hi Jim, I do like light rods, but I am not catching anything big. I usually do not catch anything bigger than 15 inch Browns. Most trout I catch are in the range 8-12 inches in my home waters (West WI and SE MN). There are bigger fish in these rivers, but they elude my flies. I do not overplay fish and always carry a net.

Thanks

Capt. Frank
Master Guide
Posts: 702
Joined: 08/30/12 11:45

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#29

Post by Capt. Frank »

Several thoughts: the so called power stroke has nothing to do will loop size, the casting arc (the arc the rod goes through between stops) controls loop size, the smaller the arc, the tighter the loop. 10 o'clock to two o'clock causes a larger loop than eleven to one. I use the speed up and stop (power stroke) on every cast I make, with no effect except for greater distance and line speed, never broke a rod of any kind, casting. Shen rods is probably correct, it would be difficult to break a rod, just by casting. I have even double hauled with bamboo rods, the only effect was over powering the rod, resulting in a poorer cast, not a broken rod.

jim royston
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1291
Joined: 08/20/08 18:00

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#30

Post by jim royston »

I don't agree with you. Without line speed, and I don't care what you call it, loop control falls apart

red 1
Master Guide
Posts: 883
Joined: 09/23/13 19:10
Location: Ct

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#31

Post by red 1 »

Jim,
Are you anywhere near CT? We could get together and I will let you cast some 100 year old Calcutta and Tonkin cane rods that are buttery smooth and cast nice slow controlled loops. One condition, no power cast, and you need to use a shorter casting arc. I think you would be pleasantly surprised.
I want to be buried with my favorite rod.
I hear the Styx River has Fish.

User avatar
kevinhaney1
Master Guide
Posts: 631
Joined: 11/11/19 22:11
Location: The mountains of Maryland
Contact:

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#32

Post by kevinhaney1 »

For those that think they need the power cast, do you power cast at the end of every false cast? If not, then you probably don't need it on your last true cast. Just let it unwind and fall slowly to the water.
Last edited by kevinhaney1 on 09/11/21 11:30, edited 1 time in total.
Kevin Haney, Vintage Anglers
http://www.vintageanglers.com

User avatar
Peales
Master Guide
Posts: 855
Joined: 06/11/07 18:00
Location: Minnesota

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#33

Post by Peales »

I think it maybe a much more fundamental and basic issue that is missed here. How does he put the rod together and take it apart. Done improperly, that is the primary cause of broken rods at the ferrules and not casting itself. Remember the old adage/saying: Hands Close Together when Put Together, Hands Far apart when taking apart".

Stressing the cane at ferrules when assembling or disassembling a rod will cause them to break more than anything else, They may break during casting but the real damage was done in assembly and disassembly, I warn ask my customers about this and never assume they know the correct way.

I believe this is the real culprit. BTW I have had Mike McFarland cast rods and with his ultimate power stroke he has not broken a rod yet. So let's go back to the basics.

Chris
As I was reading through this thread I was thinking the same thing as Chris. Especially with regards to disassembly. I have witnessed a lot of ‘stubborn’ rods disassembled over the years. Every once in a while I see someone torquing well off the centerline of the rod. It’s a frightening visual, and yet the person doing this is typically unaware of what’s going on.

Did these rods always come apart easily?

Capt. Frank
Master Guide
Posts: 702
Joined: 08/30/12 11:45

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#34

Post by Capt. Frank »

Jim, we will have to disagree, but try this: make several weak casts with an 11 to 1 o'clock casting arc, note the loop size. Then repeat with a wider arc, again noting loop size. Do this again with more line speed, you will find no change.

User avatar
GerardH
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 1067
Joined: 06/20/19 08:45
Location: Wyoming, MN

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#35

Post by GerardH »

I've been sitting on this thought for quite a while, so I apologize for the speculative question:

There's a recent thread here regarding submerging rods for photo opps or what have you...am I out of line thinking water could be entering at the ferrules and weakening the bamboo?

I think Alex knows where I'm going with this...

NewUtahCaneAngler
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2379
Joined: 01/22/17 17:05
Location: Utah

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#36

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

Have your rods typically broke while casting after catching fish? It may be that you are using the rod to lift a fish from the water or bending it in an undesirable manner while netting the fish, thus compromising the rod, which subsequently breaks while casting. I think that your percentage of breaks is too high to be bad luck.

Cheers,
Joe

AlexP
Master Guide
Posts: 380
Joined: 08/29/19 14:18
Location: South Minneapolis

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#37

Post by AlexP »

Hello Gerard, it crossed my mind the same thought after reading that thread. However, setting aside the unknown maker's rod, which could be defective, I had fished the third (assembled from a new blank) only 4 or 5 times at most. And I am not sure if I submerged that rod in any outings to take photos. I understand the damage that water can caused a rod and I do dry them completely after each outing. For Bill's rod, there was no water damage. People here with a lot more knowledge can opine on your theory, maybe you are into something, but I would be surprised if either of these rods broke because I might had submerged the rods a couple times.

Joe, thanks for the question. All broke without catching a fish, nonetheless, the damage could have been done in an earlier outing. Nonetheless, I am pretty careful fighting and netting fish. None of these rods come with no questions ask 25 year warranty like the graphite days!

I fished this weekend the Critchfield rod, and it casts great. I follow the advice in this thread regarding my casting, although a little paranoid, it was a very enjoyable outing.

Tight Lines

RSalar
Guide
Posts: 184
Joined: 04/24/21 06:20

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#38

Post by RSalar »

OldCane wrote:
09/09/21 05:44
Are you twisting the sections to align the guides as you seat the two sections? Over time, if you do, you can delaminate the bamboo segments near the ferrules if you twist time after time. Once the rod has delaminated there a good chance the rod will break near the ferrules.
I bet you are right. He said he wasn’t a great caster so I doubt he had too much line in the air.
Testimony is like an arrow shot from a long-bow; the force of it depends on the strength of the hand that draws it. Argument is like an arrow from a cross-bow, which has equal force though shot by a child.” Bacon.

Franknrod
Guide
Posts: 103
Joined: 02/13/17 09:46
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#39

Post by Franknrod »

A principle I used in my business life was: "Once is a curiosity, twice is a concern, three times is a pattern." While it is possible those 3 rods broke by chance from different causes, it is quite likely there is something in common. A fourth occurrence would confirm a pattern, but I am sure you would like to avoid that! There are many excellent ideas presented here on what might have caused these breaks, but, obviously, none of them can be confirmed without examining the broken rods. You might consider looking at other rods you use to see if there are signs of stress in the same areas where the your rods broke. If so, that information might provide a clue to help you avoid another break.
Frank Payne

Mister Bill
Master Guide
Posts: 784
Joined: 12/25/11 08:20

Re: 3 Broken Rods While Casting - Question

#40

Post by Mister Bill »

It is so refreshing to find someone who breaks as many rods as I do (4 and 5 wts)

I think I see my problem.

I use flies that are too big and wind resistant for that rod. Then, like I do graphite, I give it a power snap when double hauling, making an underhand cast, or casting into the wind.

Just keep plenty money in your checking account, or change your stroke. LOL.

Post Reply

Return to “Rod making, restoration, repairs and discussion on those related topics concerning bamboo rods.”