What makes a good rod "Quality"?

[Jcrouse]

This may ruffle some feathers, but I hope everyone chimes in, especially those of you that have been doing this a while.

Scenario #1: I buy two tips in an antique store. One is a Monty, one is a Leonard, but I don' t know that ahead of time. How would I determine which is which?

Scenario #2 I have a Leonard with a tip that is 1" short. In my pile of parts I have a Monty with a tip that matches the taper and is the full length. If I swap all the hardware and rewrap refinish the whole thing, is that tip legitimate?

How much does the actual raw bamboo differ from maker to maker? Is it an obvious thing? Can a Leonard tip only be replaced by a Leonard tip? What's the difference between finding, say, an old Japanese rid with the same taper and having a new tip made with the same taper if it's just the blank?

Thanks in advance for your input

Justin

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[steeliefool]

#1: the hardware
#2: legitimate? if you mean original then no. high end Montys were made as well as any.
#3: these things are fishing rods, made to be fished.
i think this is really about personal preference and/or honesty if selling is involved.

[Jcrouse]

#1: the hardware
#2: legitimate? if you mean original then no. high end Montys were made as well as any.
#3: these things are fishing rods, made to be fished.
i think this is really about personal preference and/or honesty if selling is involved.

Thanks. Probably legitimate was the wrong term, and I'm not disparaging Montys. I guess my questions come down to whether there's a big difference in the quality of material and craftsmanship of the blanks themselves.

I appreciate your input.

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[Don Andersen]

Using analogy about rifles.

For $20 you can buy a rifle
For a further $20 it goes bang
Add another $20 and the bullet cones out the end
Add $100 and the accuracy gets to hitting a newspaper page @ 50 yards
Add a further $500 and the accuracy improves to 4” @ 100 yards.
Add a further $500 and you should expect 2” groups @ 100 yards.
After that you can add thousands of $’s and the gun just gets prettier.

Rods are similar.

Don

[steeliefool]

Considering almost all the cane for rod building came from the same place, i would think that, other than cosmetics, the quality of the cane was reasonably consistant regardless of maker.
So hardware quality is the key.

[steeliefool]

Using analogy about rifles.
After that you can add thousands of $’s and the gun just gets prettier.
Rods are similar.
Don

Zackly!! Like earings on a pig!

[Seabowisha Salmo T]

Using analogy about rifles.

For $20 you can buy a rifle
For a further $20 it goes bang
Add another $20 and the bullet cones out the end
Add $100 and the accuracy gets to hitting a newspaper page @ 50 yards
Add a further $500 and the accuracy improves to 4” @ 100 yards.
Add a further $500 and you should expect 2” groups @ 100 yards.
After that you can add thousands of $’s and the gun just gets prettier.

Rods are similar.

Don

hello, don; yes, and a good rod has a good fish on the end of the line going into the net or tailer. in my opinion,

regards, jim w

[3creeks]

Assuming that the cane is equal as well as the construction solid, it's the taper that makes the quality. And these things are subject to personal preference. Maybe there are folks who hate Leonard rods and would trade one for 10 Monty rods, with Leonard's being more valuable.

[steeliefool]

Maybe the question should be "why are Leonards more expensive than say a Monty Manitou" ?
Quanity? Age?

[Tommasini]

1. Hardware and node placement.
2. It will fish just fine but it's really not a Leonard anymore but who cares? It's a fish pole!
I think the higher grade makers had time to pick out better culms. I think Monty used what was handy knowing their rods were selling for a fraction of a Leonard, Thomas, etc.

[steeliefool]

I think the higher grade makers had time to pick out better culms. I think Monty used what was handy knowing their rods were selling for a fraction of a Leonard, Thomas, etc.

I would think the opposite would be the case, as a large co. could more likely afford to have "boots on the ground" to garner some of the best along with the bulk.

[Canewrap]

I think the higher grade makers had time to pick out better culms. I think Monty used what was handy knowing their rods were selling for a fraction of a Leonard, Thomas, etc.

I would think the opposite would be the case, as a large co. could more likely afford to have "boots on the ground" to garner some of the best along with the bulk.

Ah, but Leonard was a smaller company that made a lot of rods and paid more attention to quality. A large company, like Montague or Horrocks Ibbotson was mass producing fishing rods in the millions and cranking them out. Their surviving rods seem to be Leonard's equals in durability, but I would be willing to bet if you could somehow work out percentage wise, how many Leonards survived more than a generation (30 years) it would be clear that the Leonards had better quality control and more of their rods have survived. I also would wager that Leonard had more fly fisherman making rods than Montague (in Philadelphia) and knew what made a great rod. IMHO, tt's like comparing a Bentley and a Ford. They are both cars, but the quality is different enough, even though both companies have access to the same high quality materials.

[Pterrano]

Some people use their bamboo rods to fish. To these people all that matters is how enjoyable it is to use. Some people value the historical accuracy of their rods, and it is more important a rod be un-altered. And a few people even use them as a means of measurement...

All depends what your intention is.

[steeliefool]

I think Montys best, not the made by the thousands ones, were as good as any in fit and finish. Leonard et als made lower grades as well, si?

[Tommasini]

I think Montys best, not the made by the thousands ones, were as good as any in fit and finish. Leonard et als made lower grades as well, si?

I would rather own a sub 8' high grade Montague than a sub 8' Leonard. There is something about a blue collar rod that would be enjoyable to fish with. There are a few (as in hen's teeth few)) Montague Redwings and higher 7 1/2'ers floating around.

[steeliefool]

Had a 9.5' excellent original condition Manitou that swong, swang? a brace of wets with aplomb. Had the Varney sprial twist lock ring reelseat....beautiful rod.
Still have a Leonard with the dated ferrules and reelseat "cartoush" that was looked at/appraised at CT. show years ago and was deemed to be unworthy of a redo unless by myself!!
Go figure!!

[Short Tip]

I don't think this question is a hard one. Better makers like Leonard, Thomas, Payne did select their cane, paid close attention to node spacing, generally did excellent glue ups, had specific tapers and fine tips. The hardware, especially ferrules but also reel seat, was very high quality and the ferrules lasted a very long time.

Monty and other production rods have much looser tolerances, less than perfect glue joints, random node spacing, and simple tapers. The ferrules and hardware range from "pretty good" to "should have never been sold as a usable product". They generally don't have fine tips or complicated tapers.

None of these factors will absolutely determine which rod YOU prefer. Some of the mass production rods are good fishing sticks. For myself, I fish a lot, and I got over these rods as they tended to come apart with frequent use. Split ferrules, cracked plastic reel seats, delaminations and similar problems got old for me pretty quickly. As always, YMMV.

[Jcrouse]

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and opinions. I really appreciate it.

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[Canewrap]

I'm with Short Tip on this. I fixed up a lot of blue collar rods and fished them years ago. It was a very valuable learning experience, but I guess I have champagne taste and a beer budget, so I learned how to make my own and my personal rods are better than anything I ever encountered in the blue collar rods. I agree with every point he makes about quality, and that was another reason I stopped fixing up old montys, HI's, etc. Sometimes I would put a lot of work into one of the blue collar rods, just to have something break or have underlying problems exposed that don't show up in better made rods. It does all come down to what you prefer, but there are marked differences between the better made classic rods and the mass produced rods.

[steeliefool]

U all understand I speak of Montague's Manitou, very top of their line, susposidly built in a seperate, smaller shop.
Quality as good as any. Yes?