Varnish application conundrum

[fragmentum]

I am a new bamboo fly rod maker. I learned from a fellow who dips his rods in a tube of varnish inside a dipping/drying cabinet. His building area is on a second floor of his home so his dip tube is actually placed down through the floor, and the tube of varnish is actually hidden in a downstairs closet. Convenient and effective, I thought.
I have since learned as I construct my building area that there are several reasons to NOT dip, but to drip or hand rub the finish on the completed blank, using different gloss and matt varnish and other materials.
So, since I already have this other builders dipping/drying cabinet, I was going to modify it by building an extension on to it to get the height I needed to dip at least 8 foot rods. I was not, however, convinced totally to this aspect and looking at having to cut a hole into my floor in the rod building room to accommodate a tube to hold varnish, and the quantity of varnish that would need a heating element to 'up' its temperature for application, especially during winter months. It also meant I needed to cut a hole in my 8 foot ceiling to get extra height for the raised cabinet!
This would kind of 'lock' me into one finish as well for the quantity of varnish I would need for this dipping process and only one place to put the cabinet. I live in a ranch style home with no convenient second story.
I decided to just modify the existing cabinet by adding a solid floor and ceiling on it, and will heat it with incandescent lamps (various wattage's to satisfy my heated environment needs)/and or small heater, seal all the corners and gaps with a seal on the inside of the door. It is now, simply, a drying cabinet and it can be moved anywhere. It will reside inside the closet for now.

[carlz]

I would nix the heater. It looks like a fire waiting to happen and in such a small space, the lightbulbs can heat a small space quickly. If you need more heat, insulation and a couple more lightbulbs is the way to go. That heater is also a blower type which will blow air around.

It looks good.

And if you ever want to dip, you can figure that part out later. I personally thing the best solution is a friend with a dip tube :-)

[JimmyB11]

Agreed, a light bulb will provide all the heat you need, I never "sealed" mine and had no problems. I dip my sections in the "open air" then walk them to cabinet and hang them. I have no problems. Consider adding cup hooks to the roof of the cabinet, the way it is now the sections will hit the back wall when you hang them.

[fragmentum]

Carl & JimmyB11,
Thanks for posting and all good suggestions. I felt I probably wouldn't need the little heater. I need to get a thermometer inside and 'light 'er up' with an incandescent light to see how this box warms up.
And yes, moving the hangers to more the middle of the cabinet makes perfect sense...

I don't have a 'friend' here in Missoula with a dip tube, at least not yet. I know one other individual in the area that refurbishes old fly rods to sell, but I don't think he is into restoration as we know it.

As I mentioned in my initial post, a dip tube with a fair quantity of varnish represents an expensive quantity of varnish (more or less...) that would need management. I can experiment with different finishes by buying smaller quantities over time. I like the idea of not overwhelming a rod with dipped varnish that will lessen the exterior apexes, and over thickness on the wraps as well.
In my building infancy, I have not developed a style that I like yet, but have good ideas what I want finished rods to look like, and how they fish.

Don
Don Smith Cane Craft

[JimmyB11]

A one inch cooper pipe dip tube takes less than a quart of varnish.

Buy a $1-2 meat thermometer and drill a hole near the top and you have a battery free e-z read thermometer, plenty accurate for this task.

Try a 60 watt then a 100 watt bulb to see the difference, my box warms up ten degrees with a simple light bulb.

Helmsman gloss varnish $16.97 quart, will last 3 years in your tube. As I said less than a quart fills the tube the leftover you save for wraps or topping up the tube.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Minwax-1-qt- ... /100376197

[carlz]

Jimmie,

Now I have a question. Do you replace the copper tube after 3 years, or does it clean up easily? I'm less concerned with the cost (this is cheap if you are going to do more than one rod), and I'm more concerned with contamination.

[64Emmons]

I use a 150 watt kitchen bulb on a dimmer-- one of the round disk dimmers you push in to turn on. The dimmer is mounted at toe level next to the bulb socket. I tap the dimmer with my toe to turn it on and turn with the tip of my shoe and have the dimmer marked with the favored points on the dial.
I have an quarter inch thick aluminum plate the size of the box interior making a heat box in the bottom ten inches of the box. I have a bunch of holes drilled in the plate to let trapped heat escape but the plate does heat nicely and I think it evens out the heat in the box interior. I line the heat box with fireproof foam insulation.
The same 1x2 pine runners I mount to support the aluminum plate I use as runners near the top of the box. Across the runners I have removable 1x2 lengths of the same wood for hanging rod sections. I have these strips mounted with rows of hooks. I can dry 24 sections at one time.

[64Emmons]

As for not wanting to dip because you don't want to load the rod with varnish or load the corners-- dip just twice then. Use a slow withdrawal rate such as two inches or less per minute. I don't even have to pay attention to anything but the stripper guide at that rate. As for corner buildup, that is a factor of the kind of varnish you use rather than how you apply it. Experiment for yourself, but some finishes done on the "flats" and some finishes seem to seek the corners. I had flats in quotes because I try to have curved flats anyway because flat flats, especially in larger sections of a rod, make zero sense. For example, if you had a rod with flats that were an inch wide, would you really want the flat to be flat? How many power fibers would you blow through to achieve the flat? You can see what I mean by using an extreme example.

[JimmyB11]

To answer your question about copper tubes, plenty are in use and there are no problems with the copper "reacting" to the varnish as it relates to color etc. After 5-6 years if the tube gets cruddy from use you can pop off the bottom cap and clean out the tube with abrasives, then some acetone then some soap and warm water and finally a good drying and you are good to go for another 5 years. I have tubes that are 15 yrs old.

[LeeO]

I also have no room for a dip tube. I used a drain tube for a while, but it was an absolute pain, allowing me to only do one section a night due to the fact I couldn't remove the rod section until it dried overnight. I switched to a infant medicine dropper ala the turkey baster method.



I wound up with a better finish that I could apply at a faster rate. It still takes me about 6 or so coats before I am satisified with the finish.

I apply at about a 50/50 ratio of spar urethane thinned with mineral spirits.

In the end, I wound up with a cheaper, quicker, better finishing process than the drain tube. Just my experience.

[fragmentum]

Finally decided I DID need a dip tube, so construction has begun. Decided to drop a 1 inch schedule 20 PVC tube down through the floor of my drying cabinet, through the floor of the closet the cabinet resides in and on down into the crawl space to the dirt level. I have about 45 inches from top of floor level to the surface of the crawl space so the top of my dip tube 'cup' will be up inside my cabinet with an overall dip depth of 50 inches when fully installed. My cabinet has 59 inches of height, so I should have plenty of pull clearance. I'll mount the pull motor on the top of the drying cabinet with a small hole for the line. Hopefully it will all be debris free.
I have a thermostat and heating cable on order that will provide heat for the 'sauce' to 90° - 100°. The heating cable will be spiraled around the PVC then insulation over that to keep the heat in.
The area directly under the floor area that will be drilled for the tube was an air plenum for heating/cooling as the closet in this room is directly behind the furnace/air conditioning closet! I had to partially subdivide that plenum with plywood and sheet metal so I would have a clear path down to the crawl space.













I was concerned (not sure why...) about the quantity of varnish to fill the dip tube, but that actually figures out to be only about a pint and a half (nominal) with this setup.

The pull motor setup I inherited so not sure if I'll keep the magnetic shut-off feature the previous owner used.

[BigTJ]

A heating element combined with a pvc tube inside the house seems a fire hazard. What if the thermostat malfunctions? Be sure that element can't melt the tube or ignite varnish.

Much safer to heat copper tube in cabinet - yours is heated already - then just drop into slot in bottom of cabinet or just dip out in the shop in the open. The copper and varnish have a high heat capacity. It will stay warm enough to dip for a good long while.

[fragmentum]

A heating element combined with a pvc tube inside the house seems a fire hazard. What if the thermostat malfunctions? Be sure that element can't melt the tube or ignite varnish.

Believe me, I'll be doing some testing of the heating system before applying it. This is not designed to exceed 100° at any time, and heating the varnish to operating temperature will be done slowly. No more a fire hazard than any other covered low amp heating device ie: heating pad...

Much safer to heat copper tube in cabinet - yours is heated already - then just drop into slot in bottom of cabinet or just dip out in the shop in the open. The copper and varnish have a high heat capacity. It will stay warm enough to dip for a good long while.

None of my electrical process ever get put on automatic. I monitor those processes to the -nth- degree!
I have already been heat treating bamboo in my rod room, with an oven that reaches much higher temps than this varnish set up will get.... No fires yet.

Thank you for your concern.

[bvandeuson]

On the subject of fires. I'm a retired industrial electrician and I've seen my share of electrical fires in all kinds of "safe" equipment. You can't be too careful.

They make these little Klixon wafer switches in different temperature ratings, they're very reliable and are not expensive. Klixon is the brand name. It might be wise to install a Klixon of say 50 degrees higher than your cabinet actually gets, as a high temp limit. Basic Klixons are not really accurate enough to use as running thermostats, but if close control is not a problem, they could be used for that. Wire into the hot wire of your incoming power and make sure the wafer is not against any insulating material such as wood. Mount it inside a simple open ended aluminum cover as the aluminum will be at the same temperature as your cabinet and it will protect you from accidental shock exposure from the open terminals.

You could also do the same with your heat treating oven, only a higher differential might be appropriate there to prevent false shutdowns. You want the ones that OPEN on temperature rise. There are also manual reset Klixons for greater safety, forcing you to see to the problem before turning the unit back on.



BB

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, I have a suggestion regarding the screw in top on your tank. I think a better way, though a little more trouble, is to use a Neoprene seal and a lid that is bolted on. Your set up has a step, so a collar could be fitted around the tube and long bolts through the lid and collar can be tightened. Screw caps will allow the varnish to harden and a Neoprene seal will not.......... Jay Edwards

[mtn]

I work in a closet in my basement, so the closet is my heating and drying cabinet, it's roughly 4' x 4'. I have 8' ceilings which became a problem with 8' 2 piece rods. Easy way to get around the height..... I use a 40" dip tube. That covers the whole butt, subtracting the grip and seat and gives head room extra. On the tips I dip from each end, ending at a guide wrap. I have a very difficult time finding the varnish line on the wrap. I even over shot it before and couldn't hardly find it on the cane.
It increase the tip dipping times 2 but time I got and cutting a hole in my living room floor wouldn't please the wife too much. I tried telling her she could cover it with one of her plants when I wasn't dipping but I got this icy look which after 33 years I understand.
Mike