Frederick Malleson

Question and answers concerning makers and manufacturers of bamboo fly rods.

Moderator: pvansch1

User avatar
cwfly
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2594
Joined: 02/24/06 19:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#21

Post by cwfly »

The question I ask myself, with no answer, is where did Frederick Malleson learn these supposed great skills as a rod and reel maker? In 1875 he appears as a partner in Conroy, Bissett & Malleson. Where was he working before that?

jeffkn1
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 4814
Joined: 06/08/05 18:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#22

Post by jeffkn1 »

OK, some things are starting to fall into place. I still have to go back and identify the years when Malleson was marking his own instead of for a partnership, but more and more it appears Malleson was ahead of the curve in his hardware development. I already knew that he was one of the first, if not the first, to use snake guides. And I read the item above that you picked out of an 1878 F&S, Rob. That holds your answer to the difference between Malleson and Leonard hardware: Malleson was already drawing plate in '78 and Leonard was still buying Philbrook & Payne components. I don't know when Leonard went to drawn metal parts but it was certainly well after '78.
My request for a Malleson rail was to see whether it looked like a soldered Leonard or more like a Chubb made from drawn tubing. I'll try to cough up a couple of photos for comparison. I know that while Wheeler's top grades continued to be hand soldered up into the 1890's, his mid grades sometimes used Chubb drawn tubes with Wheeler's own two-piece soldered butt cap beginning in the very early 1880's, right after the patent was issued to Chubb.
Your brass Malleson seat appears to have a separate ring at the forward end serving as a grip check. Is that the case, Rob?

jeffkn1
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 4814
Joined: 06/08/05 18:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#23

Post by jeffkn1 »

cwfly wrote:
06/16/20 13:23
The question I ask myself, with no answer, is where did Frederick Malleson learn these supposed great skills as a rod and reel maker? In 1875 he appears as a partner in Conroy, Bissett & Malleson. Where was he working before that?
I can't get out my head a rod makers' version of Fight Club, where rod making apprentices work in a secret basement honing their craft away from the prying eyes of the public. No?
Back to the drawing board....... ;)

jeffkn1
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 4814
Joined: 06/08/05 18:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#24

Post by jeffkn1 »

Pentalux wrote:
06/16/20 09:29
Although this same seat can be found in nickel silver (from conversations with the Gnome) I believe his very top grade rods likely had soldered rails that were sculpted to fit and lock the sliding band (not Gilbert Bailey's slide lock as shown in picture above) but please enlighten me.
I differentiate between two basic rail styles, formed, as in a Chubb , and soldered, as in a Leonard or early Wheeler. Chubb took a drawn tube and ran it through dies that formed the grip check (serving as a stop for the sliding band) and rails, which were the result of two metal pieces striking upward from the inside of the tube. The result was uniform and very cost effective, because that tube with its built-in grip check and rails, replaced 4 components done the old way. And it was patentable. This example is a nickel plated brass seat from a lower grade Wheeler trade rod.
Image
Making soldered rails started with folding sheet brass or NS and then cutting a narrow strip with on edge being the fold. One end was ground to a taper. The tube was then cut in two places, slots into which the rails could be held and soldered. The grip check was a separate ring of metal either pinned in place or soldered. Seen from the end, a soldered rail might look like this early Leonard (P&P actually).
Image
Side by side comparison of the two, Chubb left, Leonard right.
Image

Knowing which type of rail is sometimes useful when trying to date a rod. A formed rail like the Chubb patent could not have been made before December 4th, 1880. Soldered rails were still being produced by Leonard, Wheeler, and others, some beyond the turn of the century.

User avatar
Pentalux
Master Guide
Posts: 585
Joined: 03/04/06 19:00
Location: Northern NJ
Contact:

Re: Frederick Malleson

#25

Post by Pentalux »

Thanks Jeff - that is as I understand it. The top of the seat looks to be pressed out and all one piece. Here are some better close ups of the rail and top but that is what has me intrigues about C,B&M/Fed Malleson as this seat looks to be one piece just substantially heavier metal - my eyes are not what they used to be but ImageImageImageImageImage

maybe you can validate, are these machined or pressed? If pressed could then the Chubb patent be something akin to the Patent for the planing form as used by Garrison and hundreds of other rod makers of note? The Patent is held by Giordano Catalono and the date of the Patent is Sept 20, 1983 - could the Chubb Patent be nothing new technically just never specified for application for a reel seat? Or was this perhaps even a Conroy machine and process that Malleson had "inherited" if you will when he took over as head of manufacturing?? The seat almost looks as if it was compressed to shape as opposed to being pressed out like Chubb parts appear or are these just well done soldered rails??? Really appreciate your input!

jeffkn1
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 4814
Joined: 06/08/05 18:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#26

Post by jeffkn1 »

Rob

I'm still collecting my thoughts on this and have been reviewing previously posted Malleson hardware photos, as well as Googling around at auctioned Mallesons. A story that has Malleson starting with machine-manufactured metal parts and ending with rolled & soldered parts some years later almost sounds like his process was devolving, which doesn't click.
Your brass rails look like they were formed the way Chubb's were but if that were the case, he would have to have waited until early 1898 to avoid patent infringement (1880 + 17 years). For a long time I believed that Chubb was breaking ground by using drawn tubing but recently I was told, probably by Gnome, that seamless tubing was already in use for reel seats. I don't think that seamless tubing in that application was a patentable application but the forming of rails and a grip check would be, especially since it was functional for both up- and down-locking orientation, covering fly and bait applications.
More to come.

User avatar
Pentalux
Master Guide
Posts: 585
Joined: 03/04/06 19:00
Location: Northern NJ
Contact:

Re: Frederick Malleson

#27

Post by Pentalux »

Definitely looking forward to you assessment. Another thought on the metal seats, could they all be lower grade regardless of manufacture? I ask this as some of the nicest Malleson's have fully morticed seats that continued from the top of handle. He used nickel silver hardware on them and perhaps these were his top design with anything that did not show the full mortice reel foot being a less expensive alternative(?). From the size of his factory it was clear that he was producing an astronomical number of rods for various names yet his very top grade with his stamping may have been relatively rare with few actually produced. This from Jan. 1878 sheds some light and reminds us that this was still a period in time when the import was considered a superior product both here and in England.
Image

User avatar
Pentalux
Master Guide
Posts: 585
Joined: 03/04/06 19:00
Location: Northern NJ
Contact:

Re: Frederick Malleson

#28

Post by Pentalux »

cwfly wrote:
06/16/20 13:23
The question I ask myself, with no answer, is where did Frederick Malleson learn these supposed great skills as a rod and reel maker? In 1875 he appears as a partner in Conroy, Bissett & Malleson. Where was he working before that?
It looks like Thomas Conroy was also in in his twenties when the company began - is there any information anywhere on Bissett and how old he might have been?

Wondering if they might have been school mates or if Malleson was already working in the Conroy factory prior to or possibly even during the war and was fully knowledgeable of all aspects of production? Charlie is there any record of where he lived as a teen and perhaps where (and when) he lived in Woodbury?

User avatar
cwfly
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2594
Joined: 02/24/06 19:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#29

Post by cwfly »

Re: Bissett
Thomas M. Bissett, born 1838, was the son of James Dunlap Bissett and Mary M. Trappan Bissett. He was born in 1838 and died 13 August 1914 in Brooklyn where he had always lived with his widowed mother and his sister Joanna Bissett. His mother died in 1887 and his sister in 1913. He was a Second Lieutenant with the New York Militia in 1861. There is a Brooklyn directory listing for 1862 that indicates he was an accountant. Here is an obituary:

Image

User avatar
Pentalux
Master Guide
Posts: 585
Joined: 03/04/06 19:00
Location: Northern NJ
Contact:

Re: Frederick Malleson

#30

Post by Pentalux »

Thank you Charlie - Is there any information or record of where Fred Malleson was living as a teen and in his early 20's?

Would anyone possibly know the addresses he might have lived, (curious if close to any known Brooklyn factories) and especially while in Highland Mills?
Last edited by Pentalux on 07/19/20 20:53, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
cwfly
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2594
Joined: 02/24/06 19:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#31

Post by cwfly »

Pentalux wrote:
07/19/20 08:14
Thank you Charlie - Is there any information or record of where Fred Malleson was living as a teen and in his early 20's?
Yes. If you assume he was living with his father, Dr. Charles Malleson, the he was living in the borough of Brooklyn at several addresses.
If he was not living with his father then I assume history records no location.

User avatar
Pentalux
Master Guide
Posts: 585
Joined: 03/04/06 19:00
Location: Northern NJ
Contact:

Re: Frederick Malleson

#32

Post by Pentalux »

Was kinda hoping you might be able to provide the addresses where he was living in Brooklyn as a teen as curious how close to certain known factories of the time. Was also really hoping to get the address he was living with his new wife in Orange County, NY.

Since this thread reads like a blog (thank you again for your reply Charlie as without your posts it would be) - another observation on C,B&M, it seems they stopped advertising in Forest & Stream in 1878 for several years - the only ad's are for flea powder and dog biscuits for almost two years!? (not clear if they are advertising or the manufacturer but only place for purchase listed for first year and a half is C,B&M then another is added)

From an advertorial type article published during this time though it seems they were perhaps focused on the Malleson bow as the country, still fighting Native American's in the west, was enthralled with archery at the time. Here is part of an interesting article written on the various bows available which gives a very detailed description of the silver tipped Malleson bow - C,B&M's bamboo bow being mentioned first...

Image

User avatar
cwfly
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 2594
Joined: 02/24/06 19:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#33

Post by cwfly »

Okay, I didn’t know you wanted me to write that much detail.

Ante birth of Frederick. His father, Dr. Charles in 1841 and 1842:
Image

Image

Post birth of Frederick:
Brooklyn 1857:
Image

Brooklyn 1862:
Image

Brooklyn 1865:
Image

Brooklyn 1866:
Image

Brooklyn 1868:
Image

Brooklyn 1869:
Image

Brooklyn 1875:
Image

Woodbury Falls 1876:
Image

Bamboocollector#1
Sport
Posts: 31
Joined: 07/22/20 18:38

Re: Frederick Malleson

#34

Post by Bamboocollector#1 »

Two Malleson rods undergoing restoration.
First a Malleson from 12.5' 3/1 from GB with all blackened brass fittings. This is the rod with possible GB patent numbers on the female ferrules. Non original guides and wraps.
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

The 2nd rod is a marked CBM with the mortised grip missing the rattan wrapped portion. This rod is 13' 3/1 and needs guides, wraps, a female mid ferrule, and a couple of inches of bamboo due to short sections.


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Previously known as bamboocollector11

jeffkn1
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 4814
Joined: 06/08/05 18:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#35

Post by jeffkn1 »

Thanks for posting those, Ed. Malleson seems to have been somewhat of a chameleon. It's difficult to establish a style of hardware that would help us identify and date his work. He's all over the map, so to speak.
Another thought is that Malleson, like numerous other makers, may have assembled his rods using a mix of proprietary components and Chubb's. For example, given the similarity of all the flat sliding bands in use in the late 1800's I can't see why any maker would have wasted the time to make his own when Chubb's were readily available, and that goes for the Leonard/P&P era. And if Malleson used a seat with raised rails, patent protection would have dictated purchasing them at least up to 1897 or thereabouts. I've seen this with Wheeler's middle and lower grade rods from the early 1880's up beyond the turn of the century, at which point he even used stock Chubb butt caps.

Bamboocollector#1
Sport
Posts: 31
Joined: 07/22/20 18:38

Re: Frederick Malleson

#36

Post by Bamboocollector#1 »

Here's pics on a Conroy butt section made by Malleson. Same rails and knurling as my rod from GB but nickel silver fittings and a truly heavy hard rubber grip. This butt section weighs twice the weight of the independent Pritchard handle pictured with it. Based on the markings and time frames, how did he get around the Chubb and Pritchard patents? Also why such an eccentric mix of drawn and seamed and soldered hardware?
Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image



Image

Image
Previously known as bamboocollector11

jeffkn1
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 4814
Joined: 06/08/05 18:00

Re: Frederick Malleson

#37

Post by jeffkn1 »

Ed

I think if you remove that butt cap, the rest of the seat is Chubb's.

bluesjay
Bamboo Fanatic
Posts: 3817
Joined: 12/26/11 12:08

Re: Frederick Malleson

#38

Post by bluesjay »

Hi Guys, I have one that is finally 'done.' It came from Scotland as a 'two piece' with an upside down ferrule, and a casting rod tip top on the mid. There was/is an original 'set' of ferrules. I put a welt on the original out of ignorance, but Jeff said to leave it. I made a set for the tip I made. I made some innocent mistakes 'restoring' it, it's now a nice rod with guides/cosmetics that can be fixed. I just didn't have parts although several forum members supplied some, as well as a lot of support/advise.

Jay Edwards

Though I've posted them before I'm having trouble posting pics.
Last edited by bluesjay on 07/30/20 20:47, edited 1 time in total.

Bamboocollector#1
Sport
Posts: 31
Joined: 07/22/20 18:38

Re: Frederick Malleson

#39

Post by Bamboocollector#1 »

Jay,

Pics please!
Previously known as bamboocollector11

Bamboocollector#1
Sport
Posts: 31
Joined: 07/22/20 18:38

Re: Frederick Malleson- There's CBM on ebay

#40

Post by Bamboocollector#1 »

The rod is ending tomorrow
Previously known as bamboocollector11

Post Reply

Return to “Information About Makers and Manufacturers”