Browntoning among classic makers

[Canewrap]

My understanding of browntoning is that it was potentially some combination of flaming, heat-treating, and/or stain. Did any of the classic New England rodmakers, besides Thomas, browntone their rods? I'm looking at some old blanks (of unspecific origin - other than New England) and three of the butt sections look dyed a dark mahogany/black walnut like color (very even tone). When I compared the butt sections to a darkly flamed strip of mine, there is some red/orange tone in them that's not in the strip that is only darky flamed.

[headwaters]

Although Thomas apparently used that term first around 1919, as I understand it he actually was trying to copy what Edwards -- who lived across the street from Thomas at that time -- discovered first and marketed earlier i.e., that flaming tempered the cane, while darkening and strengthening it. (See Playing with Fire, Patrick Garner, p. 61-63). That book also notes that, although Edwards didn't call it "browntoning," at least one of the dealers marketing Edwards rods, H. J. Frost & Co., did in his 1926 catalog. (Id. at p. 209).

[Canewrap]

Ok, looking at the Edwards rods I can see these as possibly Edwards in origin.

[Short Tip]

Although Thomas apparently used that term first around 1919, as I understand it he actually was trying to copy what Edwards -- who lived across the street from Thomas at that time -- discovered first and marketed earlier i.e., that flaming tempered the cane, while darkening and strengthening it. (See Playing with Fire, Patrick Garner, p. 61-63). That book also notes that, although Edwards didn't call it "browntoning," at least one of the dealers marketing Edwards rods, H. J. Frost & Co., did in his 1926 catalog. (Id. at p. 209).

Rupert, I think those assertions have come into question somewhat since Garner's book. AJ can probably clarify.

The earlier Thomas Mahogany rods were indeed stained, with an iodine based stain. They did have a more reddish-orange cast to them, and very even. I believe the Browntone process was a combination of oven tempering and ammonia steam.

[headwaters]

Paul--

I'd love to hear what AJ has to offer. I'm not aware of any information questioning that EWE pioneered flame tempering, or the dark color, or that FET was trying to emulate Edwards' success with the Brown Tone rods. Garner quotes Keane as saying that Edwards "experimented with chemicals, forced steam, ovens and open flame" before settling on his flaming at a certain distance for a certain period of time approach. (PWF, p. 62.)
However, I'm not aware of any more recent information from published sources.

I have read or heard that the FET Mahogany rods were stained with an iodine formula. Interestingly, the FET book simply notes that "[a]t different times, different methods or formulas were used to darken the rods for the 'Mahogany' or 'Brown Tone'." (Stewart & Girard, p. 163.) The lack of information doesn't surprise me, because it was clear from PWF and other sources that, for competitive reasons, these early rod-makers were somewhat secretive on the methods they used. Nonetheless, Garner further notes that, "much later, after endless experiments," Thomas figured out Edwards' technique and "then begins to immediately produce an imitative line of rods he calls Brown Tone (although these rods are oven-tempered, not flamed like the early Edwards rods)." (Id., p. 63).

I recall that, in one of their catalogs, either Keane or Carmine mentioned that someone (that I believe he named) had figured out the FET browntone process. It's a snowy day, so 'll have to go back and see if I can find that. Nonetheless, I hope AJ weighs-in with his information.

Do you know the status of AJ's promised book on FET trade rods, or if this information will be in it?

Thanks,

Rupert

[Short Tip]

Hiya Rupert,

See AJ's comment on page 2 of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=69&t=100200&start=20

The idea that Fred Thomas was frantically trying to imitate Edwards does fit neatly into certain narratives, but I haven't seen much direct evidence. In fact, I think the evidence is starting to show otherwise. I'll leave that discussion to those who have been doing the research.

PK

[Broken Rod]

Hi, all!

The darkening of bamboo rods started in the early to mid nineties by the use of ammonia vapor, rodmakers copying the method used to create "mission oak." I have a lone butt section of Appleton & Basset #548 (circa 1895) that was ammoniated plus flamed along its length. At this time, the partners were Thomas and Payne, but Ed never did try darkening his rods when on his own. Therefore, I attribute this experiment to Thomas.

Lets continue with Thomas. He introduced the Mahogany prior to 1910, a rod somehow dipped or coated with iodine or maybe mercurochrome. I don't know what it was, but the staining was on the surface only. By the teens, Fred was flaming his Mahoganies. I have the "most flamed" Mahogany yet found, built in 1917, but I have seen other, earlier, ones. The flaming on this rod is close to scorched, very black, and runs along all three sections. As such, the rod places Thomas as a very early maker in the flaming genre. Around 1927, Thomas bought the rights to a new darkening process. The contract exists, but I have not read it. I do believe this would be the forthcoming "Browntone" process, accomplished by a cold dip over a period of time. No flame or heat involved.

Now we can turn to the legendary, amazing, flamed rods of Billy Edwards while in Brewer. First off, the singular and original source on this incredible "secret" process comes from Marty Keane. In turn, I repeated Keane because I trusted him-- he was the Guru! Yet I said nothing about "secret," having seen Billy's house, the size of his property lot, and his direct location across from Fred's Victorian abode. I was followed by two more authors, and you know who they are. Twenty years later, and after examining 8 or 9 Brewer Edwards rods (and owning 3), I have yet to see a flamed Brewer rod by Billy. I firmly believe Keane made it up as he went along. When we get to the Winchester era of Billy's career we may be looking at rods darkened by a steam process, again no flaming. This would be conducive to the nature of mass production. The earliest advertisement that I've seen of a flamed Edwards rod emerges in 1929 when he (and his sons) were at Mount Carmel. The A&I ad describes the Edwards Deluxe as "blue flamed." There may be earlier ads that specifically tout "flamed" but I believe they would be post-Winchester.

Finally, we arrive to Jim Payne. After his father died, the business went to Hannah and she sat at the helm, quite conservatively, until her death in 1924. Her will was not executed until January, 1925. Amazingly, or not, a few months later Jim took on partners (first Oram, then Halstead) and relocated the rod shop to downtown Highland Mills. At about this time, or maybe earlier, Jim built an oven to darken his bamboo. I have a Kosmic built by Jim, and the shaft appears much darker than those made by Ed. Also, the tip tube is not only baked but it's flamed. If this rod is any indication, and I place it at the mid 20s, then very possibly Jim was flaming before Edwards.

I am not out to favor one maker over another. All I know about is what I see or can find for documentation. In the long view, Fred Thomas really got the shaft by previous historians, especially when you consider he was making a 2-ounce 8-foot rod in 1893. Billy was perhaps anal retentive, or maybe bi-polar, and insisted in making impractical rolled and seamed ferrules while in Brewer, in placing intricate and commercially non viable wrapping schemes on his rods while at Filbert St., but he was an incomparable artist. Ed Payne was an arch conservative, except when it came to automobiles. And Jim Payne?-- his worth can be seen in the price of his rods.

I believe Charlie's chapter on Edwards in Bob and Jerry's book has done much to debunk the Keane bullshit, and I'm further airing the laundry simply because I'm not assured I'll wake up tomorrow morning. Thank you for reading this.

[headwaters]

Thanks for sharing this additional information, AJ! Without sitting down with you, or sharing a canoe with you at Tim Pond, I'd probably never have learned it.

I look forward to your FET trade rods book!

Thanks,

Rupert

[Adamsdry]

Thank you Mr. Campbell.

D

[Canewrap]

Thank you gentleman. This is more curiosity than anything else. I'm using these two butt sections as foundation for making up a set of rods for someone. I'm posting a photo below and its the sections on the left. The strips on the right are ones I'm working on and were just to show someone a color comparison.

[Short Tip]

Whoever made it, it's pretty!

[Greg Reynolds]

AJ,

That's the most interesting post I've read here in many years...

Your comments on Keane mirror my thoughts on his chapter on Orvis.

Thanks,
Greg

[quashnet]

Not to pile on, because angling research builds upon earlier work... but much more is now known, and known with greater accuracy, about Paul H. Young than is related by Keane, including the key participation of Bob Summers.

Keep waking up every morning, AJ. When you write about rods, you wake us up too.

[2dabacking]

Canewrap, Those are beautiful looking blanks.

wrt browntoning and Jim Payne:
"All Payne rods are toned to a rich brown color which is not a surface finish or stain but penetrates the cane and increases its resiliency. The first rods toned by this process, which is exclusive to Payne, were offered to the public in 1916.... The bamboo in all Payne rods is heat-treated by a formula developed by us many years ago, for the purpose of increasing the hardness, strength, and particularly the resiliency of the cane. The formula is exclusive with us and of such benefit to the rod that it is a prime factor in Payne quality." (published in the 1951 Payne catalog, p. 30)

That is as close as I can get to a direct quote from Jim Payne.
I wonder if there weren't others, besides Thomas, Edwards, and Payne, working on a similar process during the same time.

[cwfly]

It is very easy to enjoy this fact based discussion of classic fly rods.
It is not so easy to appreciate how much hard work has gone into
the research. But it is always welcome.
As Bob wrote - - keep waking up A.J., I am....
Charlie

[Short Tip]

Many thanks to all you guys. Great stuff.

PK

[NewUtahCaneAngler]

Hopefully this does not deviate too much from the original intent of this thread and no disrespect to anyone is intended.

AJ stated:
"When we get to the Winchester era of Billy's career we may be looking at rods darkened by a steam process, again no flaming. This would be conducive to the nature of mass production."

I have three bamboo tip tubes that came with Winchester rods and all have very obvious flaming. Why would a mass production house bother with cosmetically flaming the tubes, but not the rods, which would benefit from the flaming/heat as well? I'm refinishing a Montague boat rod (same as the one on page 170 in Rod Crafting, by Gnome) with trumpet guides and there is obvious flaming to the cane, so the benefits of flaming were known while Billy was at Winchester and Montague was certainly a mass production house.

I also own an extremely dark mahogany colored Abbey & Imbrie that looks about the same as the photo posted by Canewrap. It has a 4 3/4" reel seat, so I suspect that it is also an early rod. I have no idea who made the rod, which appears to be more stained than flamed.

BTW, AJ, I own a signed copy of your Classic & Antique Fly Fishing Tackle and reference it often!

Cheers,
Joe

[Short Tip]

I do recall reading somewhere that whole culms were sometimes flamed before being imported, to kill parasites, etc. Also, calcutta cane has a mottled/flamed look. Any chance that's what's going on with your tip tube? I can't imagine anyone would flame one for cosmetic or strength reasons.

[Broken Rod]

I have numberless tip tubes that are flamed while the rod (and tips within the tubes) are not flamed. It's easy to flame a Calcutta tube and takes less than 5 minutes. To flame split culms becomes an entirely different manner. If you have seen flaming accomplished at one of the Rodmaker gatherings at the Catskill Museum, you know what I mean.

This is just my personal observation, but the so-called "flame" marks on Calcutta cane are always short and end abruptly, no trace of lesser heating at each end. I believe these dark areas on Calcutta are caused by a species of black mold that gets under the enamel. It has been also said that the Indians flamed these culms to straighten them. This would only drive the export price sky-high. Bamboo of all species grows as straight grass. No straightening needed. Watch a good Kung-fu movie; almost all of them have the old-sword-fight in the famous bamboo forest... where the bamboo will lean due to its own weight But!-- its still straight.

And lastly-- In the antique and classic bamboo era, flaming was never cost effective, time consuming, and raised the price of a rod by extra, intensive, labor. This is why those flamed Thomas Mahoganies cost twice as much as an ordinary rod, same with Billy Edwards who was perhaps the most impractical builder of his time-- yet a genius. And the same can be said for Jim Payne. Most of what we are seeing is baking, flame flourishing in noticable spots (usually on the butt section, with a pass or two on the mid, seldom on the tips), and especially amonia infusion.