Hollow building

[GayleGold2]

I am reading “Casting a Spell”. At one point the author states that he examines the inside of the butt of a Eustis Edwards rod. He writes that it showed signs of hollow building. I was under the impression that Edwin Powell is credited with inventing hollow building. So who IS the inventor of hollow building? Powell was granted a patent for it.

[Gnome]

Murphy's and Leonards and other Calcutta cane rods from the 1860s and 1870's all had hollow butts and mids as did many other makers. I have a Chubb component rod circa 1880-1890 that is un marked but hollow built all the way through the tips. Good question with I am not sure there is a hard and fast "who did it first and when" But it (Fully Hollow) is as early as the 1880s with that rod installed in the GTRS showing hollowing all the way through the tips.

[snorider]

That is amazing information Jeff, could you please let us know how you figured out it was hollow, delam? xray? thanks

[Gnome]

Michael,
Deep experience with pre-1900 rods, having restored 2 Thaddeus Norris's and 4 Murphys and multiple Leonards and a wheeler or two along with deeply studying the construction of rods from the early 1800's forward (British and American). Remember I also own about as many pre 1900 rods as anybody out there.
1 tip is short 3" at the ferrule (That piece is gone) the tip top on the short tip when removed shows it is a flat hollow all the way through (ALA Wayne Maca/Beaverhead style), reset the ferrules on the mid and when doing that it showed the mid to be hollow all the way through with a flat hollowing. The butt section is also hollow which was shown when I reset the ferrule and reel seat on the butt.

Anyone living who claims to be the first to do a complete hollow all the way through a bamboo rod is flat out wrong and spewing unprovable BS!!

Because I know they did not build this rod unless they are approaching 130+ years old!!!!! and I am happy to share that rod with anyone who comes and visits the GTRS. It is extremely light for its length of 12' when assembled.

Jeff

PS yes I know this goes against excepted beliefs but those facts are Wrong and I can prove it!!!

[cdmoore]

I'm curious who is crediting EC Powell with inventing hollow building?

It's true, Powell and Stoner (at Winston) are probably the most well-known (semi-) hollow builders, and each was granted a patent for their methods of hollow building. Naturally, each was a strong advocate for his own methods, especially versus their contemporaries back East, and did much to popularize the concept--they had rods to sell after all--but I don't think either one of them ever claimed to have invented hollow built rods. These guys were casting whole culm salmon rods at tournaments after all. Mother Nature had already invented it.

I'm not aware of any modern rodmaker claiming to have invented hollow building, though some appear to have developed and publicized unique approaches, often a variation or extreme implementation of the methods developed by Powell and Stoner. Some of these approaches to hollowing are made possible by the development of ultra strong structural adhesives to which none of the "Golden Era" makers had access. The old glues just wouldn't have held the structure together. Wayne Maca is the most recent to have been granted a patent for his methods. Other methods may have been patentable but it is unclear if any applications to the Patent Office were ever made.

That's my take anyway.

[CDCdun]

Gnome, could you get an idea of what percent flat to apex distance was removed? Did it look like they were doing it for weight savings, or simply aggressively removing the apex to get the pieces to seat together better. In either case, pretty cool to learn of old hollow built rods.

Jake

[mer]

Jeff, awesome. "those who don't learn from history....". Chris points out a very important bit at #5: patent on the method, not on the result. If the old rods weren't so precious, it would be fun/interesting to delaminate them or cut them apart to see things like this. But they are more valuable to the community being whole.

[Gnome]

Jake,

About 30% on the broken tip I.E. 30% removed leaving 70% of the strip, and Mike, Thanks!!

Jeff

There is a modern maker who claims to be the first to hollow all the way through the tip, Not so with what the GTRS shows and tells us.

[cdmoore]

Jeff,

Hmmm. That is troubling.

Beyond what you have discovered the hard way by examining rods in the GTRS, Lew Stoner describes a full hollow-fluted rod in his 1930s patent, which has been readily available online for sometime and reprinted in various media for even longer. Presumably, Stoner actually made such rods prior to his patent application and for some time thereafter, though it appears he later abandoned the tip hollowing.

[BigTJ]

There is a modern graphite rod maker that claims to have invented the switch rod when in fact they were probably invented at about the same time Gnome's hollow built rod was made - back in the 1800's. Seems the internet gives a lot of people license to say what they want but it doesn't make it true.

It also makes a ton of sense that knocking off the apex as much as possible would have been one of the first thing early rod makers would have thought to do. So intuitively would have thought hollowing would have been done in 1800's nice to get confirmation that is the case.

Thanks Jeff for the great history lesson.

Cheers,

-John

[mer]

Jeff, what are dimensions on a Calcutta cane rod compared to a Tonkin cane rod? I know the physical characteristics are different between the two species, I'm guessing a Calcutta would have physically larger dimensions. If that's a good assumption I wonder if that lends itself to hollow building.

[Gnome]

Mike,

The pre-Bangor Era rods from Leonard and Murphy and others were built with large butts in excess of 1" in diameter, this was probably influenced by the British wooden rods and was pre-cork. The material itself forced them to hollow build the butts and mids of the very large rods in particular. 18' Bangor era Leonard salmon rods are hollow well into the mids. The thickness of Calcutta is less than Tonkin and was a factor in early design. Happy 4th of July to my friends here!!

Jeff

[mer]

Thanks Jeff. Just based "on the numbers" I figured Calcutta would normally be larger diameter for the same strength, which could lead more naturally into hollowing.

Happy Founding of The Best Country In The World to you and everyone else here.

[Woodlakejag]

I don’t know what Black was referencing when he said a EW Edwards rods “showed signs” of hollow building, but I am doubtful that Edwards hollow built any rods.
I have a EWE Tournament rod, built at the end of his career, where every effort was made to cut weight (snake stripper, metal seat). It is a 9’3” rod that weighs 6 oz. If EW was going to hollow build a rod, it would have been this one.
by comparison, a hollow built E.C. Powell of the same length (9’3”) weighs 5.35oz.
So, my assumption based on the weights is that the Edwards tournament rod is solid built.

[snorider]

1 tournament rod? I am doubtful that excludes him from having ever built any hollow built rods. But without a doubt he was not the first. Great History lesson Gnome.

[Gnome]

And while filming rods for "Wading along the banks of time stick in hand" I have more information now about hollow building and it is a bit of a shocker!!! Does anyone want to take a guess at when I can prove hollow built sections were first done? It will definitely be a surprise!!!! definitely NOT when we think the first attempts where made.

[roycestearns]

Are we only talking hollow cane? If not we go way back, some of the General rods were hollowed.

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, What type of hollowing did Hardy use on Hollowkona rods, or any hollow rods they made?

Here's this, but I didn't see the type:

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=11553&start=20

Jay Edwards