E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

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cwfly
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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#1

Post by cwfly »

Playing with Fire[/i], PCG's book, states that Eustis W. Edwards sold to Winchester in 1919 with a five year contract. George Black had written in that the contract was "amended" in July 1923, when a bare 15 months remained. So EWE's contract expired, roughly, in the Fall of 1924. I have a question about the actual treatment employed by EWE while working to achieve the darkened cane and here is why. One Leavitt J. Lane of Hamden, Connecticut (where Eustis lived) applied on September 24, 1925 for a patent, assigned to Winchester, describing a "Process for the Manufacture of Split Bamboo Fishing Rods." The drawing very clearly depicts a culm, various cut sections in various stages, distinctly darkened post-treatment pieces and a completed section. The process is described in detail starting with a culm, cutting and rough beveling the strips, and then before gluing them up, subjecting them to a pressure steam treatment at 100 pounds for twenty minutes, and if desired, heat in an oven thereafter. His description of the object of the patent was: the manufacture of split bamboo fishing rods which shall be stiffer, stronger and more elastic in proportion to their weight and also enhanced in attractiveness of appearance by virtue of having a substantially uniform, rich, darkened color[/i].[/i] Final planeing was to be done after full drying and Lane also said the glue would adhere in a stronger manner since the resin was removed. The patent, 1,645,812, issued in 1927. A link to the patent is here. Is there any reason to believe that the process described might have been a process used by EWE and that Winchester, through a patent application, was trying to tie up the process when Edwards departed? It just seems extremely coincidental that Mr. Lane, with prior patents for a casting plug (1921) and reel seat (1920) (both to Winchester) would describe in detail how to construct a split bamboo rod that is heat tempered and darkened in color at the same time EWE was departing. I corresponded with two rodmakers, whom I respect, who had differing opinions on whether this would work. Thoughts of others are welcome.
"History has a beloved cousin who has the family eyes and nose
but is a rather different creature - myth." Ken Cameron,
The American Fly Fisher, v. 28, n. 1, Winter, 2002, (AMFF, Manchester, Vt., 2002).

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#2

Post by Whitefish Press »

I think in the wake of Edwards departure Winchester was scrambling for anything that might set their rods apart from the many new companies entering the market in the 1920s. I believe this is the process hyped in their ads beginning not too long after Edwards started making rods again on Filbert Street, such as this ad which was published in a number of journals of the day:
Image
I don't think Edwards had anything to do with this process. Lane seems competent enough (a reel seat would mean he was likely one of Edwards subordinates) to have come up with this process, which would appear to have been mostly designed to darken the cane (note the copy says "specially treated brown stock"). But of course, this is speculation on my part, but none of the evidence I have seen (and I've researched Edwards at Winchester as heavily as anyone) leads me to believe this has his fingerprints.

-- Dr. Todd

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BruceHandley
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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#3

Post by BruceHandley »

In the above posted ad they mention a "roto ring" tip top, anyone ever seen one?
Bruce

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pcg
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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#4

Post by pcg »

The Roto-ring tips were a late 1920s trick used by Winchester. I illustrate a couple in "Playing With Fire." And I've handled a couple rods with the tips. My memory is that these first appeared in 1929 ads...

There clearly was a small scale war going on between Winchester & Edwards for a couple years after he left. EWE ran ads differentiating his rods from those sold by Winchester -- and Winchester, somewhat surprisingly, advertised that they were still selling "Edwards hand-made" rods for at least two years after he left.

I'm not sure about the meaning of the patent (nice find, Charlie). Edwards flamed his better rods, and as Todd notes, the patent describes a very different process.
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"Playing With Fire, The Life and Fly Rods of E.W. Edwards"
"D Is For Dingley, The Master Reelmaker" (co-author, Brian Taylor)

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#5

Post by cwfly »

The use of steam, when I found the patent, struck me since Martin Keane, I believe, had writtent that Eustis experimented with chemicals, steam and flame. I also seem to recall that George Black had written that Streamer said that Eustis experimented with chemicals, steam and flame.
And then to find a Winchester patent for steam, apparently based on its having been actually used, within such close proximity to Eustis leaving seemed remarkably coincidental.
Thanks to you both for your thoughts.
Charlie
"History has a beloved cousin who has the family eyes and nose
but is a rather different creature - myth." Ken Cameron,
The American Fly Fisher, v. 28, n. 1, Winter, 2002, (AMFF, Manchester, Vt., 2002).

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#6

Post by jeffkn1 »

I either have or had a couple of those roto-ring tiptops. I'll see if I can locate them tonight and post a scan.

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#7

Post by pcg »

Also look on page 92 of PWF for a couple of detailed photos.
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"D Is For Dingley, The Master Reelmaker" (co-author, Brian Taylor)

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#8

Post by Whitefish Press »

Charlie,

You well may be right about Lane finishing what Eustis started. It's not something I considered and will add it to the list of things to search for in the on-going effort to try and figure out what the heck Winchester was doing in the 1920s. It does make a certain amount of sense, but then again Edwards was notorious for his secrecy and would he have given away an idea like that knowing his contract was expiring?

Great catch, by the way, on the patent. I have no idea whether it would work or not, but it DID make good copy.

-- Dr. Todd

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#9

Post by cwfly »

Dr. Todd,
Thanks for your input and best wishes on your new ownership.
Charlie
"History has a beloved cousin who has the family eyes and nose
but is a rather different creature - myth." Ken Cameron,
The American Fly Fisher, v. 28, n. 1, Winter, 2002, (AMFF, Manchester, Vt., 2002).

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#10

Post by pcg »

And another thought on the patent... I agree that it seems coincidental. Timing is almost too good. But what struck me immediately as being odd is that the patent is for steam. By odd I mean that EW Edwards never bothered to patent his discovery of flaming cane. And although the practice changed the craft in the ensuing years, he left the discovery in the public domain.

If Lane's patent was a blatant attempt by Winchester to muscle in on Edward's specialty, why would Lane have not included use of blue-flame as well as steam? If he had, and as Edwards continued the practice of flaming cane (which he did on his best rods), Winchester could have conceivably brought action to stop him from using his own invention. Certainly nastier legal maneuvers occur all the time. Winchester's corporate muscle would have easily outgunned Edwards in any court arena, and made life just a bit aggravating for the little shop. But that wasn't Lane's tactic. Nor was use of steam something Edwards practiced, particularly post-1915. Browntone rods were FET's trademark, not EWE's.

So the "coincidence" seems strong, but there remain some odd elements that I'm not sure are resolved. If would be helpful too if we knew who Lane was... Edwards' right-hand man? A Winchester corporate guy? A minor craftsman who liked to tinker? An old friend of Edwards who knew not to cross the line by including use of blue-flame in his patent? There's a story there, and knowing parts of it might help cement the parts that don't seem to align. :-)
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"Playing With Fire, The Life and Fly Rods of E.W. Edwards"
"D Is For Dingley, The Master Reelmaker" (co-author, Brian Taylor)

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#11

Post by Whitefish Press »

Just to play devil's advocate and support Charlie's theory, how do we know that Winchester DIDN'T try to patent the flame treatment? We only see the patent as it was issued and the patent examiner could have thrown out the part about the flame treatment if Edwards could prove prior use (this was the basis of the PHY letter to his lawyer about South Bend's Comfo Grip I wrote about a year or so ago), which he certainly could as he made rods this way for market BEFORE joining Winchester. There is over two years between patent application and patent issuance. I just did a random sample of patents issued for rods in the 1920s and of the six I looked at none took longer than 18 months to issue, and most took 12-15 months. Why the long wait for a seemingly simple patent? Were there parts of it eliminated by the examiner?

Perhaps this might be another reason why the feelings seemed so hard between the two sides?

-- Dr. Todd

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#12

Post by cwfly »

Just to add another thought to what Todd posted (which is a very good thought and the length of time did seem unusual) First, I cannot say that I personally know what Eustis Edwards did either before or after 1915 or what he experimented with. I have never seen the text of a contemporaneous document or first hand account stating what he did and how whatever he did might have changed over time. There is a reference to one Leavitt J. Lane having written an article as an engineer regarding the steel, design, etc. in truck springs that was published in S.A.E. Bulletin, December 1912, No. 39305N. I have no idea if it's the same person. His subsequent patent assigned to Winchester was for a one piece steel rod and his earlier patents were for a casting plug and metal reel seat. He certainly does not sound like anyone who knew much about split bamboo rods but he seems to have learned enough from someone to have carefully detailed this process. I have zero engineering knowledge or skills but suspect a pressure cooker that would hold 100 lbs of pressure for a period of time would take some construction and not be something one would keep around the house for cooking Easter peas. Might Eustis have known about this process and might it have been a selling point to Winchester since it would allow for somewhat mass tempering and coloring. If you could cook 100 pieces in 25 minutes, it beats flaming each one by hand. When he left, he would have had no interest in such a production method and simply left it to Winchester. After all, the pressure cookers would have belonged to Winchester. Charlie
"History has a beloved cousin who has the family eyes and nose
but is a rather different creature - myth." Ken Cameron,
The American Fly Fisher, v. 28, n. 1, Winter, 2002, (AMFF, Manchester, Vt., 2002).

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#13

Post by pcg »

All quite interesting. I've handled 50 to 60 Winchester rods over the last decade and the cane color almost always falls into two categories--blond, light caramel color, OR deep chocolate. A flamed Winchester rod is rare indeed.

Edwards rods from Brewer, Filbert St and Mt Carmel are either of the blond, light caramel variety, or are flamed deeply. But deep chocolate?

Charlie, perhaps that industrial pressure steamer existed at Winchester, whoever may have come up w/ the concept.
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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#14

Post by Whitefish Press »

"Might Eustis have known about this process and might it have been a selling point to Winchester since it would allow for somewhat mass tempering and coloring. If you could cook 100 pieces in 25 minutes, it beats flaming each one by hand. When he left, he would have had no interest in such a production method and simply left it to Winchester. After all, the pressure cookers would have belonged to Winchester."

That makes an awful lot of sense. It could also be a reason why Eustis never seemed quite happy there...

-- Dr. Todd

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#15

Post by pcg »

Charlie,
Do you plan to do any further research on Leavitt Lane? Might be interesting to check census records, local directories in the 1920s to check street addresses and perhaps contact a few published Winchester historians. I'm still intrigued to know his relationship with EWE. For instance, was he recruited by Eustis in 1919? Was he shifted from one division of Winchester into the new rod-making division? What was his position w/ Winchester once Eustis left?

I sense a smoking gun here. If you're already doing further research, I won't. But if you have shifted into other interests, I may begin to explore some of these issues... Let me know! Thanks.
Pat
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"Playing With Fire, The Life and Fly Rods of E.W. Edwards"
"D Is For Dingley, The Master Reelmaker" (co-author, Brian Taylor)

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#16

Post by cwfly »

Mr. Lane's patents, all assigned to Winchester, of 1920, 1921 and the bamboo patent of 1925 all have drawings signed by Seymour & Earls, Attys. That firm was in New Haven at 129 Church Street and was headed up by George Dudley Seymour, born in Bristol, Conn. in 1859. The firm specialized in patents although Mr. Seymour had varied interests. For example, he bought the Nathan Hale house to restore it, was on the Yale faculty in sculpture, led New Haven in City Planning and traveled to the Philippines with Gifford Pinchot. A Connecticut State Park is named for him and a foundation still exists in his name for preservation. Among Mr. Seymour's papers, left to Yale by his Will, are the original 1869 Oliver Fisher Winchester Patent Certificate (#1181) relating to rifle rifling, etc. In 1920 he provided testimony to Congress as a representative of Winchester Repeating Arms. No question that Winchester was his client (as was A. B. Hendryx in 1892). I don't think Leavitt J. Lane knew a damn thing about bamboo rods, but I do think, with absolutely no documentation to back it up, that he had engineering and production skills, was employed by Winchester, and took really good notes while he watched what was being done in the rod-making part of the Winchester operation so that it could, if necessary, become Winchester property. After all, one of the stated purposes of Lane's 1921 "Plug Bait" patent was to speed up production.
"History has a beloved cousin who has the family eyes and nose
but is a rather different creature - myth." Ken Cameron,
The American Fly Fisher, v. 28, n. 1, Winter, 2002, (AMFF, Manchester, Vt., 2002).

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E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#17

Post by cwfly »

In 1920 Leavitt Lane was a mechanical engineer in a gun factory.
In 1930 he was the sales manager for a hardware manufacturer.
He seems to have little connection to making rods.
"History has a beloved cousin who has the family eyes and nose
but is a rather different creature - myth." Ken Cameron,
The American Fly Fisher, v. 28, n. 1, Winter, 2002, (AMFF, Manchester, Vt., 2002).

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Re: E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#18

Post by cwfly »

There is a reason that I have returned to this ancient thread with its poorly formatted text that I have no intention of trying to repair.
Elsewhere on this forum The Gnome brought our attention to the World Bamboo Organization and the periodic Congresses that it holds in various locations around the world.

The link below, if it works, will take you to a paper submitted at the Tenth World Bamboo Congress held in Korea in 2015. The paper, I submit, documents the fact that steam pressure treating of bamboo changes its color, makes it lighter and increases its strength - all just as Levitt Lane submitted would happen in his patent assigned to Winchester. Its quite technical and well illustrated.

http://www.worldbamboo.net/wbcx/Session ... ,%20Jr.pdf

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Re: E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#19

Post by steeliefool »

Very interesting indeed gentlemen. Thanks and please continue on.
The extent of my ability to contribute, albeit late to the game, for those just reading and unfamiliar, a "Roto ring" tiptop:
Image

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Re: E.W.Edwards/Winchester question

#20

Post by pmcroberts »

Charlie,

Thank you for making this thread resurface!! When I have a little time, I will read through the material.......I may have to experiment with steam perhaps?? Thanks again for starting and resurfacing this thread!! We need to have a little EW discussion at some point!! I always enjoy what you bring to the table........and can just sit here overstuffing myself with information!!

Best,
Paul

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