sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

[ibookje]

Nice twins!

Love my 7/4. It's a great casting rod with a heavy #3 weight or 4 weight line.
I also bought a Wulff Long Belly #4. The Long Belly #3 was just a tad too light, especially on shorter distances. Haven't cast or fished the #4 LB yet.

[norcal_1]

I'm bumping this thread so that the forum member who emailed me saying the rod came out great can give an update here to let folks know how it casts, etc

[flyrod]

Let me start by thanking Mike (norcal_1) for sharing the rod map of a truly amazing Orvis rod! Thanks also to Jeff Hatton (Gnome) for creating such a detailed diagram of the rod.

After I received the rod map from Mike my first task was to find a rod builder capable and willing to take on such a task. My wish came true when during the 2018 Bamboo Bash Jim Ifert (kentuckyjim) agreed to build me a clone of the rod. The original Orvis rod was impregnated and Jim and I agree that the clone would be built with standard cane. The next few months Jim and I communicated as the rod took shaped. HUGE thanks Jim for taking on such a challenging project! Here are a few photos showing a few steps in Jim's build process.









Finally after months of waiting the Orvis clone arrived in the mail. Since the rod is a non-impregnated version of a prototype Orvis rod I had no idea what line would work on it. So I gathered up a 3wt, two 4wts, two 5wts, two 6wts, and a 7wt. Two hours of lawn casting later I settled on it being a 5wt with a no name yellow line being the best of the 5wts. I spooled the line up on my favorite small Pflueger skeleton reel and over the next few day learned what a special rod I now owned. After just a few casts the rod came alive as I could accurately cast it from 20 feet to 70 feet.










To sum it up … this 5'5" three piece prototype Orvis pack rod may be the finest small rod I've ever cast! I plan to have it with me at the 2019 Bamboo Bash and will happily let anyone who wants cast it and see what they think!

All the Best, Stan Norton (flyrod)

[norcal_1]

Wow, Stan, you're the first person out of dozens I sent the taper to that got one made,,,, so happy it turned out so well . Jim did a beautiful job on the details and finishing. Looks like a Bob Summers rod. I wanted to share the taper and have a rod map made so it wouldn't be lost to history because I suspected it would turn out great when others built one and yours proves it wasn't a wasted effort for me or Jeff Hatton.

Not sure why yours came out a five wt, but it might just be the cane fibers need to stretch with use. I assumed given the original used Orvis impregnated cane that new copies with regular cane would make it even sweeter than it already is and more of a 3DT rod. Could be the darker flaming or different ferrules or the vagaries of individual cane culms. It may limber up as it's used and end up a 4 wt rod in time (my guess). If you test cast it for an hour with a heavier line (six wt), it will speed up the process of stretching the fibers out. It takes a while for fibers near ferrules to stretch given the glue underneath and this rod has more ferrules than most along it's length for it's tiny size. The original is a 3DT/4WF wt rod - Cortland 444 WF4 or a Wulff Long Belly 3 (casts great w/ either), but I think yours will get there, too. If it does turn out to be a true five wt rod after breaking it in, you might try a Wulff Triangle Taper 5 wt on it if you can borrow one from somebody because I'll bet it would load that rod well and still have a very fine fly line tip for dry fly work. It's more of a 4.5 line anyway that taper down to a 2/3 wt tip section.

I spoke with Doug T yesterday and mentioned the rod and he said you might be visiting him. I may be able to mail my original out to you to compare side by side. As well, maybe Jim Ifert could take a look and if he has time this winter consider making an extra tip section for the original, since the rod only came with one of them and it's a tiny cane section to reproduce (I'd pay him of course).

This is the rod Orvis should have produced instead of the Mitey Mite.

[kentuckyjim]

A big thanks to those who were involved in making this taper available with such a detailed plan. Too bad that all rod tapers don't come with this level of detail. If you are a short rod fan this one is a worthy project. It will certainly surprise you with it's power.
In my amateur rod maker opinion the ferule drop is an important part of the taper. I think it would be a mistake to average the stations and stick a super Z on it. The rod is definitely worth the extra effort!!
jim

[chestatee]

As a pack rod 'fan', I can't wait to cast this rod. I have few, but nothing this small or unique. Mike, thanks for your generosity. Jeff, lovely technical writing and artwork. Finally, thanks to Stan for being a complete Orvis rod 'junkie' and to Jim Ifert (a gentleman and the best bang for the buck in rod making EVER!!!!). Stan, looking forward to our visit!

Jim is humble and skilled. I'm a professed PHY addict as many know. I've been amazed with Jim's efforts reproducing PHY's tapers. If you ever attend the Townsend Bamboo Bash, Jim and Munsey will ruin your conceptions of classic rod taper copies. These tow humble rod builders clearly have a passion for their efforts. Jim's recent Para 14 is a gem. I own and fish his copy of a Payne Para 7'9" heavy. Hoping he'll duplicate a few more rare rods for me in 2019. Munsey can cast as well as he builds - he's a master at both.

Thanks again Mike for fueling these efforts.

[flyrod]

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your great follow-up post on my Orvis clone. Much of my belief that it's a 5wt stems from the type of streams I fish my small rods on. Calling them a stream is an overstatement with many of them being small enough to jump across. These next two photos show the lower to upper range I fish:





Because the distances I'm typically casting are so short I need to over line the rods to get them to load. So when I say it's a 5wt that may be somewhat misleading. I proved this to myself by taking a Barrio WF4 line out and casting it on the clone. From 10' to 20' I "hated-it" but from 25' on it became a very different dry fly rod This tells me I'll need to pack more than one reel and line when I take this little "GEM" to the stream!

Thanks again for sharing the rod map … "it's a keeper"!


Stan

[norcal_1]

Stan, that makes total sense. Mine loves a Cortland 444 WF4.

I have a special spot for where I want to go try mine this spring (pic below). The resident 17" fat rainbow who owns this pool is a dandy and loves to do aerial displays when hooked. I like to softly drop two soft hackles on top of the little waterfall and let them drift over the lip and usually he's there to intercept one of them. This pool is much, much deeper than it looks in the picture. The fish lives under the shaded ledge on the left side.

[flyrod]

That's a special looking stream and pool! We trout fishermen are truly blessed to be able to visit some beautiful places

[norcal_1]

That's a special looking stream and pool! We trout fishermen are truly blessed to be able to visit some beautiful places

That's why we do it. California has some incredible water if you are willing to hike to reach it

There's another creek nearby that is really special....early in the season you can catch huge brook trout that get washed down from beaver ponds in the headwaters in spring runoff - 18-22" fish are not uncommon. A 5'5 rod is really fun in these kinds of waters.

[SLFletcher]

Those rods look so SWEET!!! I am extremely jealous!!
Steve

[norcal_1]

I was thinking that this rod taper might be a good candidate for somebody to input the numbers into RodDNA and see what the curve looks like and if there are any glitches to work out. I suspect given the short length of the rod and how many ferrules it has along that length, that the ferrules are very, very important to it's design and performance, as KentuckyJim suggested, and maybe that can't be accurately reflected or graphed in the software.

This would be a very interesting candidate for somebody to do a build with fiberglass ferrules

[snorider]

With the non impregnated cane and glass ferrules I bet this would be closer to a 3/4 weight.

[Canewrap]

Actually, if you use non-impregnated cane and fiberglass ferrules it will flex less under its own weight. My experience is that without reducing dimensions you wind up with a slightly heavier line weight needed (probably why Stan's came out as a 5wt). I have a Perfectionist tapered rod that I made. When I had the guides taped on it was a decent feeling 4/5wt. Once I wrapped the guides and retried the rod (with a couple thin coats of varnish) - it was now solidly a WF5. Once I used thinned flex coat epoxy to seal the wraps (and added weight as a consequence) it went back to being a 4/5 wt. The impregnated Orvis rods are heavier and have a partial load under their own weight.

[snorider]

The decrease in the net flexural modulus of a rod due to flexible ferrules would, I venture, makes far more difference than the few grams of weight you would lose. The change in flexural modulus of the rod from one with essentially non flexible metal ferrules would be significant particularly in such a short rod. The reduction of the flexural modulus vs the resultant decrease in inertial loading of the rod would be an interesting experiment to undertake. If the composite member has a lower flexural modulus it takes less force to bend the rod...so less weight to load it, so it follows the line weight should decrease.

[Tommasini]

The difference in flex between fiberglass and NS ferrules is minimal. The real reduction is in weight, with glass ferrules the flex will be less due to the lighter ferrules used.
If I built this taper as a 1 pc. without reducing the dimensions to make up for the lack of weight for lack of ferrules , it would likely require a #7 line.
Same again if one were to reduce the existing fat tip dimensions . That extra bamboo weight in the tip is needed to flex the rod.

[norcal_1]

Marc Aroner had a blog post in 2010 about fine tips on rods and how it increases line speed and efficiency of casting but I presume he's talking about fine being only at the last couple of inches from the tip top, since many of his rods are fast action

https://www.spinozarods.com/blogs/from- ... -fine-tips

He makes a 3 piece, 6", 4 wt that he describes like this:
=================
6' #4 Very Fast
Very fine tips; best suited for small drys, streamers, and nymphs; expert casters
=================

On small waters, I personally prefer a rod that bends, or a more stout rod like this 5'5 Orvis that has a taper that allows easy tip casting in close. I wonder then what narrowing the very top 3 inches might do to the way it casts, in line to what Marc Aroner says?

Marc Aroner: "Normally when the strips are glued up my 4-weights are .055” at that tip-top. Normally my 3-weights are from .052” to about .046”."

compare those tips to this rod:


I'm not a rod builder, so I'm just throwing this stuff out there to stir the pot and learn from those of you who are builders. Tinkering with an already great taper can be interesting.

[BGreer]

butt
0 @ WC .253
5" .233
10" .216
12"@F .206

Mid
0" @F .185
5" .180
10" .175
15" .157
20" .149

tip
0" @F .145
5" .1285
10" .1175
15" .103
20" .083
21.5" .078

all measurements from grip or male ferrule end
Jeff

P.S. if anyone wants the rod map photos I took please get ahold of Mike or myself

they include ferrule measurements grip measurements wrap lengths etc etc

I am going to start to gather some hardware to build this rod.
What size ferrules would be best for this rod?

I was thinking a Dickerson style ferrule for the butt/mid with a 13/64 on the butt, mated to a 12/64 on the mid.

I'm really not sure about the mid to tip ferrule? A 9/64? Or a 10/64? Or maybe a 10/64 on the mid mated to a 9/64 on the tip?

What do you guys think?

Brian

[Tommasini]

A #10 will work fine.

[BGreer]

I finished making this rod in time to take it to the Bamboo Bash in Tennessee.
Thanks to Norcal for sharing this rod with everyone. And thanks to Gnome for the meticulous mapping job done of the rod.

This rod can really cast! I found that a 5wt line loaded it best. I'm not sure why the original, with impregnated cane, likes a 4wt better. I did use a stiff glue but I honestly don't know how much a difference it would make in this rod. I was very careful about staying true to the taper dimensions, guide placement, and ferrule sizing. The PDF of the rod map made all of that very easy. I labeled my rod as 5ft 5in but when assembled it actually measures 5ft 4.5in. I was pretty happy that it came out that exact as I am still pretty new at rod building and have only a handful of rods under my belt.

At the bash, Stan (flyrod) had the silver bullet as far as fly lines went for this rod. He had an unidentifiable line that came on a reel he purchased that decidedly better than other lines.
I think that it was a line that was cut in half. The rod cast very well with Stan's line in short and at a good distance. Even for such a short rod, I would have no worries about fighting a big fish with this rod.

I tried to stay true to the grip size and shape:


I darkened the cane color with potassium permagnate:






This is a great casting little rod. It's now my go to rod for little streams.
Now if I can only find a line like Stan's.

Brian