sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod
Moderator: pvansch1
sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod
#1taper for one of a kind Orvis original 5'4 1/2", 4 wt, 3 piece pack rod in Superfine format
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***PDF of a very detailed rod map for this 1 of 1 rare Orvis rod is available for free - PM me to email it to you***
picture of 5'4 1/2", 3 piece Orvis rod maker built pack rod next to same generation (1970's) Orvis 7/4 to show scale
you can see the step down ferrules in this picture:
rod map
This 3 piece rod was built in the 1970's by an Orvis rod builder as a personal or possibly an experimental rod, that never went into production. It's a 3 piece rod that shares a lot in common with the Orvis 7/4, which is it pictured next to it above. It feels like a 6'6 Orvis Deluxe scaled down to a 5'4 rod, due to the Deluxe being a bit more stout a taper than the Flea or Superfine or 7/4. It's much more point-and-shoot. It's mostly the butt thats stiff, not the top half of the rod. A 4 wt does bend it and you can flick a fly anywhere you want with little effort and it delivers very tight loops. Rolls casts great as well.
Posting the taper doesn't violate forum rules (of publishing a current maker's production rod tapers) because it was never a production rod of Orvis. This is a 1 of 1 rod. There is no Orvis script on the rod, but it is clearly of Orvis origin, right down to the Superfine hardware and Orvis impregnated cane.
I felt the casting qualities of the rod were pretty nice for a tiny 3 piece rod, so I wanted to share it with the forum's rod builders, as a way to give back to the forum for teaching me so much about bamboo. This rod can cast as far as my Orvis Flea, against which I cast it, and has more strength to handle larger fish than the Flea or the 5'9 Ultralight or Caenis. It's not a pool cue like the Mitey Mite, except for the butt section, which is close in stoutness (the mid and tips are thankfully not). Orvis should have produced this rod over the Mitey Mite but had the Ultralight and Caenis already, so that's probably why it was not produced.
If I were building a copy, I would create a 3 wt tip to go with the 4 wt tip in the taper, for even closer casting capability. The butt section is pretty stout as is the mid section, but the 4 wt line bends the rod easily in Medium/Fast action. It casts a 3 wt line as well, but not as well as the 4 wt, imho. If it had a 3 wt tip to go with the 4 wt, it would be close to a perfect small pack rod in every respect. HOWEVER, IF USING NON IMPREGNATED CANE TO BUILD THIS ROD, IT MAY TURN OUT TO BE A 3DT ROD and likely would be less stiff than if using impregnated cane as this original had. YMMV. I actually think it will be a wonderful rod and better than the already great original, if made with non-impregnated cane.
The rod measures 5' 4 1/2" inches, 3 piece and is a true 4 wt rod (casts wonderfully with a Cortland 444 WF4 line). The grip, while small, is swelled, making it a joy to cast, even with my big hands. It casts great even in the wind, due to the reserve power you can call up in the butt section if need be. Much better in the wind than the Flea for instance.
Of course, being a 3 piece rod, it packs really small - the tube it comes in is 24 inches, but the rod itself comes in 22" sections, so briefcase size, but it is not a toy rod, it can cast as far as a PHY Midge, is Medium/Fast in taper, and casts like a cross between the Orvis 5'9 Ultralight and a PHY Midge, in a semi-parabolic manner.
Jeff Hatton ('Gnome') was kind enough to do a Smithsonian quality mic'ing of the rod, and then provided a scaled down version for posting the taper here.
per Jeff's notes to me:
the taper @ 5" centers
butt
0 @ WC .253
5" .233
10" .216
12"@F .206
Mid
0" @F .185
5" .180
10" .175
15" .157
20" .149
tip
0" @F .145
5" .1285
10" .1175
15" .103
20" .083
21.5" .078
Measurements start @ the end of the winding check/wrap
picture of the 5'5 rod and an Orvis 7/4 rod (for scale) next to Jeff Hatton's rod map, a PDF of which I can email to anybody who wants one
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***PDF of a very detailed rod map for this 1 of 1 rare Orvis rod is available for free - PM me to email it to you***
picture of 5'4 1/2", 3 piece Orvis rod maker built pack rod next to same generation (1970's) Orvis 7/4 to show scale
you can see the step down ferrules in this picture:
rod map
This 3 piece rod was built in the 1970's by an Orvis rod builder as a personal or possibly an experimental rod, that never went into production. It's a 3 piece rod that shares a lot in common with the Orvis 7/4, which is it pictured next to it above. It feels like a 6'6 Orvis Deluxe scaled down to a 5'4 rod, due to the Deluxe being a bit more stout a taper than the Flea or Superfine or 7/4. It's much more point-and-shoot. It's mostly the butt thats stiff, not the top half of the rod. A 4 wt does bend it and you can flick a fly anywhere you want with little effort and it delivers very tight loops. Rolls casts great as well.
Posting the taper doesn't violate forum rules (of publishing a current maker's production rod tapers) because it was never a production rod of Orvis. This is a 1 of 1 rod. There is no Orvis script on the rod, but it is clearly of Orvis origin, right down to the Superfine hardware and Orvis impregnated cane.
I felt the casting qualities of the rod were pretty nice for a tiny 3 piece rod, so I wanted to share it with the forum's rod builders, as a way to give back to the forum for teaching me so much about bamboo. This rod can cast as far as my Orvis Flea, against which I cast it, and has more strength to handle larger fish than the Flea or the 5'9 Ultralight or Caenis. It's not a pool cue like the Mitey Mite, except for the butt section, which is close in stoutness (the mid and tips are thankfully not). Orvis should have produced this rod over the Mitey Mite but had the Ultralight and Caenis already, so that's probably why it was not produced.
If I were building a copy, I would create a 3 wt tip to go with the 4 wt tip in the taper, for even closer casting capability. The butt section is pretty stout as is the mid section, but the 4 wt line bends the rod easily in Medium/Fast action. It casts a 3 wt line as well, but not as well as the 4 wt, imho. If it had a 3 wt tip to go with the 4 wt, it would be close to a perfect small pack rod in every respect. HOWEVER, IF USING NON IMPREGNATED CANE TO BUILD THIS ROD, IT MAY TURN OUT TO BE A 3DT ROD and likely would be less stiff than if using impregnated cane as this original had. YMMV. I actually think it will be a wonderful rod and better than the already great original, if made with non-impregnated cane.
The rod measures 5' 4 1/2" inches, 3 piece and is a true 4 wt rod (casts wonderfully with a Cortland 444 WF4 line). The grip, while small, is swelled, making it a joy to cast, even with my big hands. It casts great even in the wind, due to the reserve power you can call up in the butt section if need be. Much better in the wind than the Flea for instance.
Of course, being a 3 piece rod, it packs really small - the tube it comes in is 24 inches, but the rod itself comes in 22" sections, so briefcase size, but it is not a toy rod, it can cast as far as a PHY Midge, is Medium/Fast in taper, and casts like a cross between the Orvis 5'9 Ultralight and a PHY Midge, in a semi-parabolic manner.
Jeff Hatton ('Gnome') was kind enough to do a Smithsonian quality mic'ing of the rod, and then provided a scaled down version for posting the taper here.
per Jeff's notes to me:
the taper @ 5" centers
butt
0 @ WC .253
5" .233
10" .216
12"@F .206
Mid
0" @F .185
5" .180
10" .175
15" .157
20" .149
tip
0" @F .145
5" .1285
10" .1175
15" .103
20" .083
21.5" .078
Measurements start @ the end of the winding check/wrap
picture of the 5'5 rod and an Orvis 7/4 rod (for scale) next to Jeff Hatton's rod map, a PDF of which I can email to anybody who wants one
Last edited by norcal_1 on 08/21/19 07:49, edited 18 times in total.
Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5' 4 1/2" 3 piece Superfine pack ro
#2Man that is a dream pack rod! It would fit in my saddle bags I just measured it up! If I ever get my house project done I'm going to start building rods and this rod is now close to the top of the list. Thanks for sharing the taper.
Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it and man can only mar it. T.R.
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5' 4 1/2" 3 piece pack rod
#3butt
0 @ WC .253
5" .233
10" .216
12"@F .206
Mid
0" @F .185
5" .180
10" .175
15" .157
20" .149
tip
0" @F .145
5" .1285
10" .1175
15" .103
20" .083
21.5" .078
all measurements from grip or male ferrule end
Jeff
P.S. if anyone wants the rod map photos I took please get ahold of Mike or myself
they include ferrule measurements grip measurements wrap lengths etc etc
0 @ WC .253
5" .233
10" .216
12"@F .206
Mid
0" @F .185
5" .180
10" .175
15" .157
20" .149
tip
0" @F .145
5" .1285
10" .1175
15" .103
20" .083
21.5" .078
all measurements from grip or male ferrule end
Jeff
P.S. if anyone wants the rod map photos I took please get ahold of Mike or myself
they include ferrule measurements grip measurements wrap lengths etc etc
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5' 4 1/2" 3 piece pack rod
#4Jeff's (Gnome) rod map looks like something that belongs in the Smithsonian - seriously incredible
It fills up an 18 x 29" sheet of paper and is very, very, very detailed
I haven't been able to get down to the printers to make copies yet, but it speaks volumes about his skill and attention to detail
here's what it looks like
It fills up an 18 x 29" sheet of paper and is very, very, very detailed
I haven't been able to get down to the printers to make copies yet, but it speaks volumes about his skill and attention to detail
here's what it looks like
Last edited by norcal_1 on 04/13/18 10:46, edited 2 times in total.
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5' 4 1/2" 3 piece pack rod
#5Mike,
I am Honored and as a small sidetrack this is what the tech sheets will look like in the manual that will go with the HD video of the GTRS.
Thanks for posting and A huge thanks for making copies and sending me one. Gnome owes you a trip or two on the Gunny.
Jeff
I am Honored and as a small sidetrack this is what the tech sheets will look like in the manual that will go with the HD video of the GTRS.
Thanks for posting and A huge thanks for making copies and sending me one. Gnome owes you a trip or two on the Gunny.
Jeff
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5' 4 1/2" 3 piece pack rod
#6^ I'll get a couple copies off to you by the weekend, J
I was thinking of sending one, as well, with pics to Charley Hisey at Orvis,,,,maybe he knows the history of the rod or can send the pics to Ron White to see if he was the builder back in the '70's
My curiosity about the rod and who made it (and was it a prototype) is something I want to look into a bit,,,sort of like how Quashnet traced the history of PHY rods. I'll post what I find out. I'm just glad I was able to rescue this rod before it ended up in obscurity with the taper lost to history.
If I'm in Colorado I am definitely planning on visiting the cave and seeing the GTRS in person, Jeff!
I was thinking of sending one, as well, with pics to Charley Hisey at Orvis,,,,maybe he knows the history of the rod or can send the pics to Ron White to see if he was the builder back in the '70's
My curiosity about the rod and who made it (and was it a prototype) is something I want to look into a bit,,,sort of like how Quashnet traced the history of PHY rods. I'll post what I find out. I'm just glad I was able to rescue this rod before it ended up in obscurity with the taper lost to history.
If I'm in Colorado I am definitely planning on visiting the cave and seeing the GTRS in person, Jeff!
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5' 4 1/2" 3 piece pack rod
#7Gentlemen, Thank you for posting this.
D
D
"By the wood-shed is a brook. It goes singing on. Its joy-song does sing in my heart.”
Opal Whiteley
Opal Whiteley
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5' 4 1/2" 3 piece pack rod
#8Norcal and Jeff...THANK YOU! Incredible work. I have a feeling I won't be the only one strapping this rod onto a pack! I'll raise a drink to both of you on some remote meadow beaver damn or mountain plunge pool with rod in hand.
Indebted,
Matt
Indebted,
Matt
"Listen to the river sing sweet songs to rock my soul"
Matt
albaughcanerods.com
follow me on facebook
Matt
albaughcanerods.com
follow me on facebook
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack r
#9Is there any script on the rod? Maker's name or anything like that?
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack r
#10No there isn't any sign of script (common with other Orvis non-production prototypes), but everything about the rod is Orvis - same impregnated cane, same Guidebrod brown wraps, same mildrum stripping guide, same type Superfine grip w/ slider rings as Orvis always uses, same type ferrules, same snake guides, etc, etc.Titelines wrote:Is there any script on the rod? Maker's name or anything like that?
The taper is so well thought out for a tiny 3 piece rod like this (casts great), that it's either a prototype or one of the rod maker's own (after-hours) made personal rods. Developing an excellent 3 piece rod taper for a rod this small back when this rod was made shows the skill of the maker.
Given the Ex+ condition of the rod (no signs a reel was mounted on the cork reel seat), and how well it casts, the previous owner treasured it. The rod tube is also custom made for the rod, as was the rod bag.
Last edited by norcal_1 on 08/09/17 12:02, edited 1 time in total.
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack r
#11An excellent report on this one of one Orvis. Thanks for the info and the taper. Seems to me this is the perfect pack rod for high alpine lakes.
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack r
#12I am struggling a bit with the spacing of the measurements as I am used to starting at "0" at the tip and working back at 5" stations. I realize that due to the ferrules on the finished rod its not that easy. I will see if I can graph the mic'd measurements and extrapolate the rest into a format that I can use. Thanks.
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack r
#13I am loving looking at this taper. But I cannot see the photos for any of the postings here. (that photobucket thing) Is there a way around that? Can I get them directly somewhere? I'd like the information about the ferrules, grip, wrappings, etc.
Am I correct it that the 'jump' from butt to mid of 0.021" could call for a stepdown ferrule? (Sorry, I don't know the history of Orvis and their ferrules.) And would that jump account for the comments about the butt being 'strong' or 'stiff'? Just trying to pack stuff into my brain to learn. Not knowing how the measurements fit onto a completed rod hinders some.
Thanks.
Sam
Am I correct it that the 'jump' from butt to mid of 0.021" could call for a stepdown ferrule? (Sorry, I don't know the history of Orvis and their ferrules.) And would that jump account for the comments about the butt being 'strong' or 'stiff'? Just trying to pack stuff into my brain to learn. Not knowing how the measurements fit onto a completed rod hinders some.
Thanks.
Sam
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack r
#14^Sam
It does have step down ferrules. If I can find a new way to post photos this weekend I'll do that, otherwise, you can PM me your email address and I can email them (high res) to you directly and you can blow them up to see it
It does have step down ferrules. If I can find a new way to post photos this weekend I'll do that, otherwise, you can PM me your email address and I can email them (high res) to you directly and you can blow them up to see it
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack r
#15Over the weekend, I had a very high resolution PDF file made out of the original rod map that Jeff/Gnome had made...it was done on a high end HP printer so the resolution is excellent when the PDF is viewed at 100%
I don't know how to upload a PDF and post it to this topic, but if somebody knows how or one of the Moderators does, please let me know so I can share it
otherwise, PM me and I can email it to anyone who wants it
p.s Jeff/Gnome, please PM me your email address and I can send you the PDF file
I don't know how to upload a PDF and post it to this topic, but if somebody knows how or one of the Moderators does, please let me know so I can share it
otherwise, PM me and I can email it to anyone who wants it
p.s Jeff/Gnome, please PM me your email address and I can send you the PDF file
Re: sharing taper: Orvis origin 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack r
#16I updated the original post to bring back the pictures lost on Photobucket (scroll back up to the first post to see them)
the 5'5 pack rod pictured in front of a 1970's Orvis 7'4
the 5'5 pack rod pictured in front of a 1970's Orvis 7'4
Last edited by norcal_1 on 04/13/18 10:46, edited 1 time in total.
Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod
#17I always like my tapers starting (00") from the small end (base of tip top or female ferrule) . Is it to much trouble to ask that you post the taper that way?
Thanks
Thanks
Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod
#18everything you need to build the rod is there or on the PDF
anytime I do a rod map that is how I do it (works well for me and I will not change that methodology) and it does carry as much information as I could put down on the map. Sometimes rod making is not a paint by numbers project.
edit; the one thing not on there is guide sizes. oops missed that part. to give taper numbers over the whole length would have required the rod being totally stripped which would have been a tragedy. carry the numbers from the @ ferrule stations on out the other inch or two to the end of the section.
anytime I do a rod map that is how I do it (works well for me and I will not change that methodology) and it does carry as much information as I could put down on the map. Sometimes rod making is not a paint by numbers project.
edit; the one thing not on there is guide sizes. oops missed that part. to give taper numbers over the whole length would have required the rod being totally stripped which would have been a tragedy. carry the numbers from the @ ferrule stations on out the other inch or two to the end of the section.
Last edited by Gnome on 08/18/17 08:13, edited 4 times in total.
Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod
#20if anybody builds one of these using the rod taper numbers of it mapped by Jeff/Gnome, please come back and post your impressions of the rod and how it casts, etc
the original that I have was made with impregnated cane, so it will likely be stiffer than an copy made from the exact taper numbers but using regular cane.
I actually think the 'normal' cane rod would cast even better than my original, especially for it's intended purpose as a small stream rod. The impregnated version is a very smooth point-and-shoot rod with a WF4 Cortland 444 line. If made with regular cane, I would imagine it would become a more flexible 3DT rod, or if you want it to bend more, an even smoother 4WF rod. The impregnated version I have can cast a long way and is no toy
the original that I have was made with impregnated cane, so it will likely be stiffer than an copy made from the exact taper numbers but using regular cane.
I actually think the 'normal' cane rod would cast even better than my original, especially for it's intended purpose as a small stream rod. The impregnated version is a very smooth point-and-shoot rod with a WF4 Cortland 444 line. If made with regular cane, I would imagine it would become a more flexible 3DT rod, or if you want it to bend more, an even smoother 4WF rod. The impregnated version I have can cast a long way and is no toy