sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

The exchange of tapers forum is for classic and personally developed tapers. The definition of classic tapers are those tapers that were developed by rodmakers that are no longer alive. Please understand that rod makers who have developed their tapers, and are active in the community, should not have their tapers cloned, or shared, without their permission, please refrain for asking for those tapers as it infringes on the maker.

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Tommasini
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#61

Post by Tommasini »

Because I didn't want to spend much time planing the blank , I glued it up as a 1pc. rod, then cut and ferruled it.

5'-5" 3 pc., #4 , #9/#12 ferrules

00"---.074"
05---.084
10---.097
15---.111
20---.121
25---.137
30---.149
35---.166
40---.174
45---.185
50---.205
55---.221
60---.240
65---.240

norcal_1
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#62

Post by norcal_1 »

^how does it cast?

Tommasini
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#63

Post by Tommasini »

Great! I cast it with a Cortland Trout Boss HT WF-3F (I believe it's really a 4 weight ). Nice smooth progressive action but I love short rods.

Ron Barch
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#64

Post by Ron Barch »

I like these numbers and plan on making it as a 2 pc rod with a 10/64th ferrule. I am also a fan of the Orvis Mighty Mite. Ron

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albertatroutguy
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#65

Post by albertatroutguy »

I built this as one piece and a two piece rod with 10/64th ferrule. I got out with a friend on the lawn to cast. The two piece cast well both a 3 or 4 wt. The one piece is really responsive and better suited to a 4 wt line. My friend really like both and found the one piece could cast a bit more line. I great taper either way. I can't wait to get out and try it out on willow choked creek.

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Tom Smithwick
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#66

Post by Tom Smithwick »

Another short rod fan here. I know I am weighing in late here, but I did chart out Marty's numbers, and found basically a straight line at the tip using .074 at the zero point. It really is a personal preference, but I like to see a drop at the tip, which I think makes the rod more responsive at close ranges. Here it is charted out using .064 at the tip, which is about what I use on 4 weights. I basically like the looks of the taper. I think the slight dip in the upper half of the butt adds a bit of extra flex, which I would not necessarily want on a long rod, but actually works on a short rod if not overdone.

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Gnome
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#67

Post by Gnome »

time to build one of these mortised with the Ceramic Nitride guides and composite ferrules. could be a seriously mean if not the meanest pack rod ever!

norcal_1
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#68

Post by norcal_1 »

It's so impressive to see how much creativity has been displayed on this thread. I never expected anything close when I originally posted Gnome's rod map. :)

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Gnome
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#69

Post by Gnome »

We owe it all to you! Michael! Thanks for letting me do it. please send me your address

Jeff

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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#70

Post by trland »

Gnome sent me the rod map a few months ago and we decided to make a 1,2, and 3 piece version of the taper. We tried to stay as close to the rod map dimensions as possible and made all three rods from the same culm with identical node spacing. Each strip was numbered and every third strip went into each rod in the same orientation as it came from the culm. We figured that would make each rod as identical as possible except for the ferrules. So far we’ve only cast the 1 piece as it was the first one done. A 4 weight feels about right for this rod. Thanks norcal1 and Gnome. Sorry Jeff, we didn’t pull the trigger on the Torzite guides...yet. I really like this rod!

Edit: all are hollowed and weigh 1 7/8 oz (1 pc), 2 oz (2 pc), and 2 1/8 oz (3 pc)

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Gnome
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#71

Post by Gnome »

Way to go!! and magic becomes pure bliss if you bite the guide er bullet and do them with the torzites;-) I am completely enamored with rods that exhibit little or no friction in the cast. And this taper is a prime candidate for that!!!!! And as fast as this taper is you can throw super tight loops with it and fear no wind. YEEHAW!!!! Good on ya trland!!

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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#72

Post by Boise Bamboo »

My intent is not to be confrontational or make accusations of hypocrisy, but it seems that we all need to be more specific with the language we use when discussing such topics. For some, a taper is taboo if the company is still in business, but apparently there are caveats. Is Winston held in higher regard than Orvis? Is a rod that has not been produced in over 40 years more sacred than a rod that was a prototype?

The only moral footing seems to be based on not taking "food off the table" from folks who developed a taper and are currently making their living off of that taper. But if a taper is not commercially available from the company that developed the taper (because it was abandoned, re-designed five decades ago, or was a prototype) than is the argument still sound?

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NewUtahCaneAngler
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#73

Post by NewUtahCaneAngler »

BB, there have been many discussion on this forum about taper sharing. Here is one with several pages of hits: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53265. Given that the 5' 5" 3-piece rod was never cataloged by Orvis, and the fact that Orvis isn't even currently offering good to great tapers of the past that were cataloged for years, I'm pleased that this taper was shared.

I personally believe that a rodmaker either makes it or doesn't based upon many other things than a special taper (easily copied by purchasing a single rod from said maker). These include customer service (communication, turn around), price, finish quality, desire (or NOT) to customize thread colors, grip shape, and other tangible items. The forum may preclude us from openly sharing certain tapers, but there doesn't appear to be any laws preventing us from doing so. Moreover, if I'm not mistaken, I can copy any patented invention for my own use as long as I don't resell said invention. Even if I could not legally do so, no one would come after me for making a device (fly rod included!) for my own use.

Sometimes, posters may bend or even break their own positions on such matters without realizing they are doing so.

Happy Thanksgiving to all,

Joe

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Gnome
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#74

Post by Gnome »

BoiseBamboo /Don,

It is called having respect for Bamboo makers in business by not copying their tapers that they sell, it is called a proprietary product. And the amateurs who believe that any and all knowledge about bamboo is free for the taking shows no respect to makers making their living at it by copying their tapers and potentially denying them sales by doing that. a one of a kind never cataloged and never mass-produced prototype rod / Orvis employee made rod is a distinct possibility as well which is way different than a production model.

It is against the rules here. If you did not ask Winston for permission to use that taper which would show some respect and then this would be a different discussion. Just taking numbers another put up without Winston's permission and building the rod is like telling them I am doing this and to heck with you. no respect. Plenty of other tapers out there that are similar without potentially denying a company in business today sales of that rod model or its modern equivalent.

Would you copy a Mike Clark Taper? Or a Marc Aroner Taper? Or a Bob Summers taper? If you would not copy their work why is it O.K? To copy another maker's work who has been doing it for as long or longer than anyone else out there right now? Winston deserves some respect for that don't you think?
Scott nailed it perfectly

NSA PDI gnome.

A lot of good came from this thread until now.

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BGreer
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#75

Post by BGreer »

The taper issue was well addressed in the original post.

Brian

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Fcs
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#76

Post by Fcs »

Tom Morgan didn't seem to have any problem with the sharing of Winston tapers:

"For most rod makers the best choice is to select a popular taper from one of the well known traditional rod makers such as Payne, Leonard, Orvis, Young, Winston, Powell or Thomas on web sites listing a variety of models."

From the Forward to Bamboo Rod Taper Design with RodDNA Designer, p. I-2
"Wherever the fish are, that's where we go."
Richard Wagner

Boise Bamboo
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#77

Post by Boise Bamboo »

Jeff,
In many ways, I think we are in total agreement. I am just trying to understand your heartburn.

You state that it is about having respect for Bamboo makers in business by not copying their tapers that they sell. I agree. Based on all of the information out there, the taper posted on hexrod is not being sold by Winston; and has not for about forty years. No sales are being denied. It is an old taper that is not currently offered by the company that originated it, just like the Orvis.

Also, not sure what rules you believe were violated. I did not post the taper, I simply asked if anyone had made a taper from a very popular taper library that is available to all online. I feel no obligation to ask Winston if I can use an old taper attributed to them that is not currently being produced. I assume you similarly also felt no obligation to ask Orvis permission to post a detailed rod map of one of their rods that are not currently being produced...

I would not copy a Clark, Aroner, Summers, or a Gnome taper. Nor anyone else currently making their living with the taper they developed. But I would copy an old Orvis prototype rod not currently being produced, just as I would copy an old Winston taper that has not been produced for 40 years...

Again, fundamentally I think we are in complete agreement. Or maybe not.

If your argument is that a taper belongs to the originator for as long as it is commercially available and providing income to the originator, than there is no heartburn to be had. If your argument is about posting a taper that belongs to someone else, than only one of us committed that sin. If the justification is that one was a prototype and one was once in production, than you are essentially saying that taper developers only "own" their tapers if they are popular and are offered commercially, but if it is a prototype than anybody can make detailed measurements and share them with the world. Your argument, not mine. Bu the way, I have no issue with what you did. I simply do not like being accused of disrespecting other craftsman without provocation.

Respectfully,
Don

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Gnome
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#78

Post by Gnome »

Don,

the Orvis was not marked in any way and having worked in a professional rod shop for years I saw many employee made rods that were never marked as a SCOTT. The little rod was definitely made in the Orvis shop but not as a production rod and most likely as a 1 of 1 by an Employee for their own use and not a prototype. At SCOTT there were 2 different categories of prototypes (A, B, ) and they were marked as such.

Marked production vs unmarked Employee made???? huge difference to me.

The Winston taper was from a production rod big difference in my eyes. If you want a Winston Tapered rod of a particular taper did you perhaps ask Annette if that rod could be made as a special order? If the reply was no I would say that old taper is fair game. That is showing respect to one of the two oldest bamboo rod making companies in existence today, Orvis and Winston. Did I ask Orvis about it? Huh funny thing, I did and they show no records for that rod/ model. And they had no problem with me publishing that rod map, which I did with their permission. Whereas the Winston taper is in their records. I do my due diligence. And no sin committed by my posting it.

Edit; Please do not assume I did something without asking me! in this case, you get to eat those words.

Maybe you should take that Winston taper and add it to a spreadsheet with 5 to 10 other established tapers of that length and weight, then run a flat average and see what you come up with. Might be very different and then you might have actually come up with a new taper that you really like, might be a dog but I doubt it.

Jeff

How about we get back to the main thrust of this thread and take the Winston discussion back to the thread you started instead of hijacking this thread?
Last edited by Gnome on 11/28/20 08:17, edited 2 times in total.

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Greg Reynolds
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#79

Post by Greg Reynolds »

Gnome wrote:
11/27/20 08:03
...Did I ask Orvis about it? Huh funny thing, I did and they show no records for that rod/ model. And they had no problem with me publishing that rod map, which I did with their permission...
Jeff,

While members have to respect forum rules, which I believe you did, permission wasn't needed from Orvis for you to post the taper above. Orvis doesn't own the tapers they use--no rodmaker does. Ownership requires a patent, and fishing rod tapers can't be patented; among other reasons, they're "obvious to those skilled in the art".

Some light reading: https://www.legalzoom.com/knowledge/pat ... patentable

Best regards,
Greg

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Gnome
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Re: sharing taper: Orvis 5'5", 3 piece, 3/4 wt pack rod

#80

Post by Gnome »

Greg,

Permission may have not been needed but I felt the honorable and just thing to do was to ask them about the rod and any history or knowledge of it and at the same time, I felt that I owed them the courtesy and consideration of asking their permission to use that taper. Which I did, and was accused of not doing. I was just trying to show respect to one of the greatest bamboo rod making companies ever and I place Winston right there with Orvis. And I would do the same with them. Courtesy, respect, and due diligence.

Jeff

Has anyone built the little three piece with Torzite guides yet??

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