Antique Abbey & Imbrie

This is the board to ask about the identity, or for an appraisal, of a rod. Please use the outline as explained on the board. If there is a makers name, list that in the subject line. Make sure you include the length, number of sections, any identifying markings and the general condition. Adding photographs is always helpful!

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2dabacking
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#61

Post by 2dabacking »

jeffkn1 wrote:And for yet more A&I Best silliness, I offer this example. Take a guess. I can add one more photo later.


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Everything but the grip points to... [Edited here to give others a chance to join in. Quite the rod, Jeff.]
Last edited by 2dabacking on 01/05/19 21:06, edited 2 times in total.

jeffkn1
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#62

Post by jeffkn1 »

Lousy photo. It's rattan.
The last photo will confirm your suspicion but I'll wait for others to see it.

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Old Creel
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#63

Post by Old Creel »

Are there are circles on the bottom of the butt cap? :)

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cwfly
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#64

Post by cwfly »

I cannot say about Jeff's rod, but I can tell you that there are concentric circles on the butt of the rod I posted.

jeffkn1
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#65

Post by jeffkn1 »

Old Creel wrote:Are there are circles on the bottom of the butt cap? :)
Yes.

And there's this elsewhere


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BruceHandley
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#66

Post by BruceHandley »

Well that's telling.
Bruce

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cwfly
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#67

Post by cwfly »

Just like a signature. Scarce rod.

18cspfish
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#68

Post by 18cspfish »

More oil on the fire. Pictures of this 11 foot rod speak for themselves. This 1882 rod was a gift from father in law to a very, very rich San Franciscan. I will add a couple of comments. The butt and mid look more like Tonkin than Calcutta. Maybe the burn marks were scraped off for appearance or may it is Tonkin. There is no indication of red brass in male ferrule. Neither female ferrule has a reinforcing ring. It does not appear to have had one. It does have an alignment dot at the edge of the ferrule, just like my snakewood Mitchell, which also does not have reinforcing ring. I collect STEWART golf clubs. Maybe 5 percent of his clubs have his personal stamp. This X may mean that this reel seat is inspected and ready for use, or the rod is inspected and ready for sale, or the reel seat was obtained from an outside source and the X is used to distinguish it from other makers who use that source. Chris Gilgun.
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18cspfish
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#69

Post by 18cspfish »

More oil on fire. I can see that not all the detail is obvious. It is mortised above the grip. The ferrule appear to have been made round, but then the ends were swaged into a semi hex shape to conform better to the rod. Chris.

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bambookill
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#70

Post by bambookill »

Wow, it’s been a wild year, but I finally got back to researching this rod, again. 18cspfish, mine has that same mark on the butt cap. So, two years later we have found several rods with similar marks, and most marked A&I. I got the books again, and this time I basically started over.

The first thing I did was figure out how many New York makers would be candidates ... First, I looked up info on Abbey & Imbrie...
Andrew Clerk and Company sold Murphy rods, but when they turned into A&I they broke ties with Murphy in about 1875 A.J. Campbell pg 248. Therefore, I ruled him out, because the stamp clearly states Abbey and Imbrie on my rod.

Next, I looked at Leonard, because he made rods for two years for A&I, but... according to a few sources, including Mary Kefover Kelly those were all marked with Leonard’s name and A&I as sole agents. So checked that one off. Besides, I could not find and hardware for either maker that matched.

Next the list expanded to two parts . Part A... makers that would have had access or on close proximity to A&I and dates matched with early A& I.
Part B...rod traits and characteristics that matched.

So, the list of makers expanded to (in my opinion) John Landman, Malleson, Mitchell, and one that I just can’t get around is Edward vom Hofe. So let’s start with of the listed makers he is a hard candidate to ignore. He obviously made rods for A&I but, very few rod characteristics line up. Next, Malleson. However, he seemed to be working mostly with Conroy and Bisset. Again only a few traits lined up. Then Mitchell, some have speculated the little X’s are his and I can see why... his work looks mysteriously like the work on my rod... but as far as I know those little c’s can’t be confirmed as Mitchell... now, here is the last guy. Edward Avon Hofe.

Ok, so no books that I have read make any reference or connection to Edward vom Hofe and A& I other than his reels. It made me wonder if his reels overshadowed his rods and that connection? So, I looked up dates. Edward started his shop around the same time Andrew Clerk transformed into A&I. Could they have been sole agents for Vom Hofe, but after their Leonard experience, did not allow him to mark rods with his name, since he was just a new start up?

Now let’s look at rod characteristics. My rod came with a case that had slots for three tips, two mids, and one butt section. This alone is not conclusive, but I have found other pics (on this site) of vom Hofe rods with the same configuration. Next, this is an 8 strip rod. Hofe made eight strip rods, and yes I counted several times to make sure it wasn’t 7. Further more, the sliding band is a pretty good match for Vom Hofe rods of that era. Finally, the guides are double ring, which examples of vom Hofe rods have had that type of guides. All this, and that doesn’t even count the little x’s we can’t pin down, and that the ferrules are almost ( slightly different size in the length of the lines to the end of the back of the ferrule, but the rest matched exactly.
Ok so the pesky X’s. Here is my final thoughts about the X’s and the rod being vom Hofe. It’s going to be a bombshell and I’m sure some will disagree, but here it goes.

My rod is an Edward Vom Hofe that is made for A&I. The little X’s, I believe, are to distinguish between his unmarked rods through A&I and his marked rods. If A&I didn’t want his name in their rods, it might have been his way to say “ Oh yeah? I’m going to sign them, but you will be none the wiser.” Or maybe something as simple as a way to identify his rods that were not marked. Little did he know it would be one a great mystery. Obviously Leonard had a problem with A&I since he left after two years and this could have caused A&I owner to say, we are not going through that again, so only rods with our mark on them. I think I may have solved this mystery. Any thoughts? Feel free to comment, even if you disagree. Maybe something will surface to prove my theory, but until then it’s just a theory. Once again, I believe the little X’s are the mark of Edward vom Hofe, for rods he sold to Abbey and Imbrie as a way to identify his work. I know crazy right? Lol

jeffkn1
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#71

Post by jeffkn1 »

bambookill wrote:
03/24/21 00:39
Leonard had a problem with A&I since he left after two years
Leonard's problem wasn't with A&I, it was with his own finances. The A&I sole agency period ended when Leonard signed the deal with the Kidders. A&I could still sell Leonards but they were no longer sole agents.

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bambookill
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#72

Post by bambookill »

That’s interesting... so, do you know of A&I continued to sell any Leonard rods after their parting of ways? Also, did Leonard make an 8 strip rod? I’m wasn’t sure about that. Thanks for replying.

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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#73

Post by jeffkn1 »

Anyone could sell Leonard rods. Dealers got one price, sole agents (which is another name for distributor, I think) got a better one. Whether A&I chose to show them in their catalog, I can't say.
Leonard is said to have tried variations, like 4,6 and even 12 strip, but I have not heard of an 8strip from his shop, nor have I seen one mentioned in his Forest & Stream ads. Divine, Landman, and Buckingham are three makers of 8-strip rods that come to mind but I think there was one other.

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bambookill
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#74

Post by bambookill »

Interesting, thanks. I read Vom Hofe tried 7 and 8 strip rods.

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TheMontyMan
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#75

Post by TheMontyMan »

Jeff, maybe the other maker of 8-strip rods that you couldn't remember was Thomas Chubb, though there are probably a few others as well. I believe the Chubb factory produced 8-strip rods into the early 30's, probably up until they closed. Montague offerred one 8-strip model (that I'm aware of), but I believe they got the blanks from the Chubb shop and finished them at the Montague shop.

. . . Rex
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jeffkn1
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#76

Post by jeffkn1 »

Thomas who? Oh, that Thomas. Naturally, I'd forget about Chubb. Yesterday I worked on a Pflueger King Bee, built on the Chubb 8-strip blank.
Bet there's somebody else, too.

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cwfly
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#77

Post by cwfly »

N. K. Waring also made eight strip rods.

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bambookill
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#78

Post by bambookill »

Agreed guys, plenty of people made 8 strip rods, but how many of the makers mentioned can be attributed to the little “X”s? To my knowledge, and I could be wrong, but how many rods with x’s have been found marked with anything other the Abbey & Imbrie?

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cwfly
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#79

Post by cwfly »

Do you mean little X's like this on a rod not marked as Abbey & Imbrie?

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2dabacking
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Re: Antique Abbey & Imbrie

#80

Post by 2dabacking »

As I mentioned, Mitchell and Pritchard both used rails with "x" marks. I'm certain there were others.

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