Payne 101

[wannabe]

Forum members: I'm hoping to tap your expertise to help me date, identify and learn as much as I can about a new-to-me Payne rod. Most of my rod collection until now has been contemporary makers. I have been on the lookout, hoping to add a 7'6" Payne to begin exploring some of the classic rod tapers in more depth.

This rod was sold to me as a Payne 101 (and I have no reason to believe otherwise). It weighs 3.57oz with one tip, and 3.58 with the other. I believe it is an 11/64 ferrule. I've included a picture of the faded tag, which I believe reads 3 3/8 - 3 3/4 (perhaps your eyes will be better at deciphering than mine). The stamp reads PAYNE, REG. US PAT. OFF. (no Made For, or Sold By stamp). I've tried to include photos of the grip, ferrules, stripping guide, hook keeper, etc. If other shots will help identify or give additional info, I'm happy to take and post them. Also posted one shot with a St. George 3" to give some scale (and because I felt like it was crying out to have that reel mounted). I took it out to lawn cast for a few minutes this morning, and it seems like a smooth, med-fast #5 in my hand.

I've read a few of the threads on dating Paynes, and will continue to do more research on the forum, but I figured I would post some photos and allow those of you with more expertise to help fill in some details on the rod. Curious as well whether there are any tip offs to previous restoration, or if it looks original. Any and all information will be greatly appreciated. Many thanks,

Bret

[headwaters]

It looks like the weight reads 3-5/8 - 3-7/8 to me.

[uniquafly]

To my eyes it does looks like 3 5/8 to 3 3/4

Congratulations on owning such a fine rod. I’ve always been amazed by his work, most notably the silk wraps on his rods. I’m jealous again!

[wannabe]

Thanks headwaters and uniquafly! On re-examination, I think 3 5/8 to 3 3/4 seems right. At 3.57 oz the rod's actual weight comes in just below 3 5/8. The numerator of the heavier weight looks like a 3 to me. The denominator is pretty illegible, but if it's a 3 and not a 7, then 3/4ths makes the most sense. Is it typical for the tag weight and the actual weight to align with most Payne rods (i.e., they weren't typically listed without including the reel seat hardware or some other component)?

I wonder whether any Payne experts can help me date the rod? And, to whatever degree possible, I'd like to confirm that it is a 101 since that's not listed on the tag. I appreciate any suggestions, speculations, or ideas about the rod broadly. Thanks in advance.

Bret

[Random Casts]

To my eyes and it could be the pics, it appears that everything is well aged with the exception of the varnish on the rod, the wraps and especially the reel seat spacer. This could have been a refinish at some point.

The weight is right on for a 101, mine weighed 4 1/8 ozs deduct 1/2 oz for an uplocking reel seat.

It appears to be a post war rod, no agate stripper.

If when the rod is in the bag and tube does it fit flush with the top of the collar, pre ‘49, if there is additional space in the tube, as in room for the finial ferrule plug, post ‘49.

Just my amateur observations, I’m sure there are much more experienced Payne guys here on the Forum.
Richard

[bluesjay]

Hi Guys, Ferrule size would tell a lot.

Jay Edwards

[Random Casts]

Hi Guys, Ferrule size would tell a lot.

Jay Edwards

For the most part I agree. However, I have several Paynes where the size of the ferrules do not coincide with published sizes. Many of the early Paynes had ferrules that were turned individually, specifically for the intended rod. Later on, ferrules were turned and fitted on a production basis. There are many Payne fitted ferrules that are in between sizes.

Your rod may fall into this rabbit hole. If it is anywhere close to a 11 1/2” or 12/64” you should be in the ball park.

Walt Carpenter produced some 101s that were six weights, but I feel that your rod predates these.

My best guess,
Richard

[wannabe]

Richard, Jay,

Thanks. Richard, your posts are very helpful. The ferrule is right between an and 11 and 12 as you suggest. I was a bit hesitant to call it an 11 in my OP because that was a bit loose (I used a drill bit to measure), but the 12 was too big. Your explanation makes a great deal of sense.

The rod in the bag and tube comes very close to flush with the collar--maybe 1/8 inch clearance (see pic below). I don't think that's enough for a ferrule plug. Does that mean, then, that it likely falls between 1944 and '49? The bag does not come all the way up to the end of the rod--perhaps 1/2" to an inch below.

Again, I appreciate all the replies. Nice to learn more about the rod, and to clue myself into what to look for in making distinctions between periods.

Bret